It is simply the horse and nothing else - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

46zilzal · 07-22-2009, 11:34 AM

No better example of which makes which can be found than in the example of one of our current leading trainers at Hastings: Troy Taylor. A competent,journeyman trainer who never hit the top ten, let alone the TOP of the trainer's stats over the last 25 years PLUS, the difference is in the raw materials he has to work with. The leading owners (Glen Todd and Patrick Kinsella) have provided this fellow with live, PROVEN allowance quality race horses gleaned from some of the bigger meets in New York and Maryland.

Work with Brand X and you get Brand X results. Work with a Rolex quality stable and the results are the same.

Same goes for ANY trainer at ANY race course. It is the HORSE and nothing else. Without that raw material to work with then it does not allow for good results.

ryesteve · 07-22-2009, 11:50 AM

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Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Same goes for ANY trainer at ANY race course. It is the HORSE and nothing else.

So you're saying that trainers who are consistently able to improve horses off a claim are actually just spooky good at spotting a horse who's ready to bust out and start running new tops?

macguy · 07-22-2009, 01:27 PM

Do keep in mind Troy was leading trainer at Hst in 1963, though I suppose that was 47 years ago.

You can really say that Swift is trying to follow suit with Glen & Pat.

I suppose the purses in the last few years have reached the point where it's actually worth while to ship in near "A" track quality horses and run them at Hst.

Of course there's no way of knowing how much the big outfits are paying to purchase and ship these "ringers" to the Hst meet. I often look at the collective earnings and truly can't imagine that they are enough to cover the purchase AND training of all the horses. I believe Troy has upwards of 35 stalls at the meet (and who knows how many more off-track), and with that a small army of grooms and exercise people.

I know a few of Swifts "ringers" have been spotted running for bottoms, I suppose you're bound to end up with a dud or two.

It has certainly livened up the races at Hst, we've got to see some breeding that likely otherwise would have never made it to the meet.

I suppose the BC Breds have fallen by the way-side in some of the open stakes and allowance categories, even the higher claimers for that matter.

Tom · 07-22-2009, 02:07 PM

Funny how some horses just improve by open lengths off a claim, how some back up off of others, how some trainers are always on top, some always on the bottom.

Nope, I do not agree with that observation at all - far too much information disagrees with it.

proximity · 07-23-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryesteve

So you're saying that trainers who are consistently able to improve horses off a claim are actually just spooky good at spotting a horse who's ready to bust out and start running new tops?

46's bankroll is praying that steph beattie never starts training at hastings!!

46zilzal · 07-23-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryesteve

So you're saying that trainers who are consistently able to improve horses off a claim are actually just spooky good at spotting a horse who's ready to bust out and start running new tops?

Who runs the race? The horse. Some trainers (I worked as a hot walker for a good one who showed me the claiming game) can spot a correctable problem and circumvent it.

Case in point was an old claimer named Humphrey Lad. From the KNOWN front leg problem sire Bold Laddie (front legs tendon troubles were a major problem with his entire crop), my friend recognized his limitations, spaced his race far enough apart so that the filling in the flexor tendons went down and allowed the POTENTIAL OF THE HORSE to come out. Ran until he was 11 and, at about 25, is still around as a partner to nervous horses when shipping. Claimed for $6500, he successfully ran with allowance horses at Turf Paradise and had part of the track record at 6 furlongs.

The HORSE, the RUNNER had the raw materials. It was just up to a competent horsemen to find out what they were.

The HORSE ran, the trainer kep him running.

dvlander · 07-23-2009, 11:52 AM

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It was just up to a competent horsemen to find out what they were.

Doesn't this conflict with your thread title that says?

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It is simply the horse and NOTHING else.

Dale

46zilzal · 07-23-2009, 11:53 AM

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Originally Posted by dvlander

Doesn't this conflict with your thread title that says?

Dale

Who runs the race? HINT: It is NOT the trainer.

We would NEVER have heard of Louie Roussel or Cam Gambolotti if it weren't for Risen Star and Spend a Buck.

Even old Buddy Delp wouldn't have been prominent outside of the Maryland/ NY circuit if Bid had not landed in his barn.

ryesteve · 07-23-2009, 11:58 AM

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Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Who runs the race?

But you ARE now saying the competence of the horseman has something to do with how they run, which is not what your initial "the horse, the horse, and nothing but the horse" post was saying.

46zilzal · 07-23-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryesteve

But you ARE now saying the competence of the horseman has something to do with how they run, which is not what your initial "the horse, the horse, and nothing but the horse" post was saying.

Horse makes the trainer. not the other way around

DJofSD · 07-23-2009, 12:01 PM

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Some trainers (I worked as a hot walker for a good one who showed me the claiming game) can spot a correctable problem and circumvent it.

If you are on track and are able to get to the walking ring/saddling area, you can watch to see what the claiming trainers are doing. And if you know where they have to go to drop a slip to try to claim a horse, you can kind of put two and two together. Then wait for the announcement after the race has been run to see what horses have been claimed and by who. It used to be announced if there was a shake (more than one claim slip) but they never would tell you who the losing trainers are, just who won the claim.

Some times I wonder if a horse improves by moving to a new barn because the people handling the lead rope are better than those in the old barn.

Wickel · 07-23-2009, 12:15 PM

It's also funny how horses continually break slowly, get blocked on the turn, or drift extremely wide under certain jocks, and win or run consistently well for others. It's not happenstance--it happens time and time again. Sure you need a talented horse, but jocks and trainers are a major part of the game.
One more thing, there's a reason Troy Taylor is still training at Hastings Park!!

46zilzal · 07-23-2009, 12:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Wickel

One more thing, there's a reason Troy Taylor is still training at Hastings Park!!

yes, he lives here. I have always asked a number of trainer why they stay when they could go elsewhere and be successful: they like it here and don't want to leave.

ryesteve · 07-23-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Horse makes the trainer. not the other way around

Then go argue with the guy who just said it requires a competent horseman to uncover potential and correct problems. The rest of us will leave you alone.

fmolf · 07-23-2009, 04:35 PM

at the upper echelons of the sport, the trainer makes the least amount of difference.Some trainers will always be better than others just look at the records. same horse different records with different trainers.Different feed,different handlers,different training regimen,different/better or worse vet care,some drug some do not,trainer spots horses better,employs better jockeys.Mr. 46 you are way off base when you say the "horse is it and nothing else"..heres my saying "a trainer by himself cannot win a horse race but he certainly can lose one".