W O W ! ! ! !

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

Didn't know you were a novice.

I did know that often times, you're willfully ignorant...for whatever silly reason that may be.

This is one of those times. No further need to discuss this with you. You're not out for honest discussion.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I did know that often times, you're willfully ignorant...for whatever silly reason that may be.

This is one of those times. No further need to discuss this with you. You're not out for honest discussion.

Yep.

You're right. I'm wrong. End of discussion.

It was an easy ride. Arrogate is the best horse in the world. Just showed himself to be as much.

Patient? Really? Broke like hell, was dead last, and out of step. Sure, I give Smith credit for regrouping and letting the horse get his feet underneath him, but to say it was a great ride is preposterous. Just as much as it is to say Ortiz's ride on Terra Promessa is preposterous.

I guess I'm just stupid.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Of course horses can make up the distance - that's what a deep closer does. Think Zenyatta for a recent top deep closer.

I'm going to take the other view.

IMHO, the main reason very deep closers have such a tough time winning is that they don't distribute their energy efficiently. They go too slow early and then have to make a huge draining middle move (usually wide) to get into contention on the turn. Once they get into contention, then they have to make a second move in the stretch to catch the front runners and mid pack horses that are often still finishing well.

The problem is the vast majority of deep closers have that first run, but they don't have that second run. So they kind of hang a bit in the stretch and can't get up unless the race collapses.

If the rider waits longer to make that first move, they will have more left for the stretch run, but then they have too much ground to make up and can't get up.

Everything has to go right for the typical deep closer.

The thing that made Zenyatta a freak was that she had the first move, she had the second move, and then when she crossed the finish line you could tell there was still more reserve stamina in the tank. That means if required, you could have asked for more sooner, got it, and she still would have that second move. That's exactly what happened in some of her races. Smith timed the move to get her into position (not to maximize her final time) and she did what was required late.

IMO, that's what was sensational about Arrogate today.

He got left and did not use his energy efficiently early from way back there (just like Z). Then he made that huge move to get into contention. Most good horses would be empty at that point and kind of hang. But he had the second run because he has the reserves of a top horse. That's why he was able to win. But the truly freaky thing is that it was clear he still had plenty in the tank after the wire. You could have asked for more sooner and he still would have finished. He's a freak. IMO we haven't seen his best yet.

[whodoyoulike]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

... It was a great ride. Why? Because Smith didn't PANIC when adversity displayed its ugly head at the start. Was it Smith's fault Arrogate got hammered coming out of the gate? I don't believe so.

Another jock would have seen himself taken immediately out of his horse's usual game and start hitting that panic button. Maybe I should push him early to get back in touch with the field? Holy shit am I going wide! Maybe I need to hustle him inside to save some ground here...what the hell am I going to do?

No, Smith didn't panic. He knew he was on the best horse in the race and he decided to let the horse dictate the situation instead of taking matters into his own hands and dictating to Arrogate what should be done.

This is a far cry from the Terra Promessa ride you refer to...but I don't need to explain any of this to you...it should be obvious to anyone who watched the two races and isn't a complete novice at the game.

Husker is sorta correct.

In the OP race several people on here and "other well known media types" wanted Ortiz to "push her to get back in touch with the field" and was criticized when he didn't panic and let her run her race. It's just that she caused herself additional trouble because I think she was bothered when passed early.

Arrogate didn't get himself into any trouble and I agree with you that Smith didn't panic either.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by whodoyoulike

Husker is sorta correct.

In the OP race several people on here and "other well known media types" wanted Ortiz to "push her to get back in touch with the field" and was criticized when he didn't panic and let her run her race. It's just that she caused herself additional trouble because I think she was bothered when passed early.

Arrogate didn't get himself into any trouble and I agree with you that Smith didn't panic either.

Except Ortiz didn't let her run her own race. As he was passed by two horses, he put an absolute stranglehold on the horse. And then ran into big trouble on the turn. How is that letting her run her own race?

[zico20]

I was actually ecstatic when he broke horrible and was last. My thought process was if he wins this I get to witness one of the greatest races, if not the greatest race of my life. I have always said that to be considered truly great a horse has to do something remarkable in his career. This was it!

It does make California Chrome look even better in that he was able to only lose by a half a length to him, where every other horse on the planet would lose by double digits. Yes, Gun Runner loses by 10 or more if Arrogate breaks clean. I will never forget this race.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Except Ortiz didn't let her run her own race. As he was passed by two horses, he put an absolute stranglehold on the horse. And then ran into big trouble on the turn. How is that letting her run her own race?

I say we let that play out.

Arrogate is obviously a once in a lifetime type horse.

Terra Promessa will race again, and will get beat again.

[JustRalph]

Mike Smith was cool as could be. That impresses me.

I counted him using the whip 5 times. Once with about 500 meters to go, in the turn. Then twice in the stretch left handed and again twice in the stretch. Both times in the stretch when he came abreast of other horses. That impresses me.

[Quesmark]

Yes it was a visually stunning display of foot by Arrogate swooping by the entire field,yet the pace was moderate early,the announcer mentioned a first quarter of 24.8,and the final time of 2.02.15 wasn't particularly fast for a 1/14 mile race at his top level,Arrogate wasn't under any pressure after the bad beginning,and was mostly clear of traffic throughout giving him the chance to produce his best down the lane.
Great performance,but in the grand scheme of things where does it really
place him?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Quesmark

Yes it was a visually stunning display of foot by Arrogate swooping by the entire field,yet the pace was moderate early,the announcer mentioned a first quarter of 24.8,and the final time of 2.02.15 wasn't particularly fast for a 1/14 mile race at his top level,Arrogate wasn't under any pressure after the bad beginning,and was mostly clear of traffic throughout giving him the chance to produce his best down the lane.
Great performance,but in the grand scheme of things where does it really
place him?

Aren't the slow-paced routes the races that place the extreme closer at the worst disadvantage?

[Augenj]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Aren't the slow-paced routes the races that place the extreme closer at the worst disadvantage?

Yes.

[Quesmark]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Aren't the slow-paced routes the races that place the extreme closer at the worst disadvantage?

But Arrogate isn't normally an "extreme closer"...

[Tom]

Trakus chart.....

http://www.dubairacingclub.com/race/...o/trakus-chart

[Murph]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

Yep.

You're right. I'm wrong. End of discussion.

It was an easy ride. Arrogate is the best horse in the world. Just showed himself to be as much.

Patient? Really? Broke like hell, was dead last, and out of step. Sure, I give Smith credit for regrouping and letting the horse get his feet underneath him, but to say it was a great ride is preposterous. Just as much as it is to say Ortiz's ride on Terra Promessa is preposterous.

I guess I'm just stupid.

When that (poor break) happens to I. Ortiz he doesn't seem to know how to react. We've seen him pull up in that situation while the horse looks willing to run. He doesn't seem to understand when he needs to send or when best to save the horse.

That said, I can't compare anything IO does in relation to the riding talents of Mike Smith. It's like comparing animal to vegetable, not even fruit to fruit.

[whodoyoulike]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Except Ortiz didn't let her run her own race. As he was passed by two horses, he put an absolute stranglehold on the horse. And then ran into big trouble on the turn. How is that letting her run her own race?

I didn't see any strangle hold.

If you're referring to her turning her head after being passed, it appeared to me she was irritated and bothered by being passed. Ortiz didn't do anything to restrain her at that point. She actually caught up in the first turn but ran into the front runners and had to be pulled up and then entering the far turn another pull up by the jockey because the hole closed. She was boxed in and couldn't go outside.

and was all her running her race but, just some bad luck.

If he had panicked and had pushed her after being passed, he would've been looking at possibly dueling one or two horses for the remainder of the race which would've been around 8f.

Btw, Smith is one of my favorite jockeys because he seldom panics and has the experience to know what and when to do things.