W O W ! ! ! !

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Or, it further established him as a massive monster of a racehorse.

Yeah, he wasn't up against it because he's even better than we had previously imagined.

Same difference. Extreme versatility. Professional. Smart. Listens to his rider. Those are weapons. The only thing I can say bad about him is that he's not an overly attractive horse.

[whodoyoulike]

Originally Posted by luisbe

Well, it seems to be everybody lost the memory. After Curlin got beaten on synthetic the previous BC Asmussen said Rachel wasn't going to race on it. Waaaaay before the BC took place, that's why the hard campaign.
I also have to say that I wish Z was owned by Jess Jackson and now she'd be in higher esteem.

As someone previously mentioned, we have the Z lovers and Z haters on here. Btw, I'm a Z lover and have mentioned it many times.

I take it you're not and my suggestion is for you to search her races even her loss on YouTube and make up your own mind. Too bad Mr. Stauffer is no longer on here because I remember a couple of his race calls when she raced at HP.

And, if you still feel she doesn't deserve to be held in a higher esteem after seeing the videos, then I'll probably be receiving a couple of flags on here.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

That's a weird list. Not going to go through all of them, but Personal Ensign, Rachel Alexandra, and Lady's Secret all ducked BC Classics that they would have gotten crushed in. Bayakoa, Lady's Secret, and Azeri got crushed pretty bad in big stakes races against colts. Rags, Althea, Brave Raj, Family Style, Winning Colors, Serena's Song, Meadow Star, and Sharp Cat didn't have careers remotely like Zenyatta.

I mean, you do mention a number of mares I would consider all-time greats-- Chris Evert, Dahlia, Shuvee, Princess Rooney, and Dance Smartly were all the real deal, for instance. But Zenyatta's career, and especially her two BC Classics, compare pretty strongly with those mares' best races.

You're a smart guy. It doesn't need to be explained to you for the hundredth time that the BC was on synth, and that's why this DIRT horse didn't even plan on going. It wasn't a duck. That is a preposterous allegation given that this 3yo filly just beat older males.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

You're a smart guy. It doesn't need to be explained to you for the hundredth time that the BC was on synth, and that's why this DIRT horse didn't even plan on going. It wasn't a duck. That is a preposterous allegation given that this 3yo filly just beat older males.

Oh...was THAT it?

Because the administrator here just got done telling us that Rachel didn't make it to the Breeders Cup because she was "done"...after her murderous 3-year old campaign.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

Well said. I think people are trying to be way too clever here.

Nothing about being clever. A horse with that running style can and does make up that kind of ground and win. We just had no idea he could do that too. It was impressive, but not the impossible trip some of you are making it out to be.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

I don't get the "she was sound" part. I thought the standard backstretch gossip was she came out of the Woodard with something wrong.

The ancillary evidence is the never really mentioned a race after the Woodard. It was like 72 hours after the race everyone in Assmussen's barn was like "Rachel who?"

Jackson had already declared that the Woodward would be her next and final race of the year, and that there would be no BC for her due to the synth, therefore the Woodward was her BC.

As it turned out, the Woodward would also finally be the race where afterwards Rachel said she was done for awhile. They all hit a wall eventually with a challenging schedule.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Nothing about being clever. A horse with that running style can and does make up that kind of ground and win. We just had no idea he could do that too. It was impressive, but not the impossible trip some of you are making it out to be.

Was there even ONE horseplayer out there who expected Arrogate to be that far from the lead in the early going? And...seeing that the horse started from such an uncharacteristically bad starting position...how many actually thought that the horse would bypass the entire field and win?

IMO...Arrogate's performance wasn't just "very impressive". It was "utterly SHOCKING!"

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Macho Again (the horse Rachel was life or death to beat in the Woodward) was, indeed, a tomato can. And Zenyatta soundly crushed Mine that Bird, the horse that finished second in Rachel's Preakness.

Look, what you are saying is that she had an EXCUSE to duck the BC Classic. That doesn't mean she didn't duck it though. She would have gotten her behind kicked by Zenyatta (which you admit) because a Breeders' Cup Classic in California is simply a far tougher race than its meaningless prep, the overrated Woodward Stakes in New York.

Zenyatta beat Mine That Bird on synth, and also not during the period of time when he ran his best races. You don't look at all the facts where it concerns Zenyatta.

[Broad Brush]

Quite a few posts here using win margins to judge the talent of horses.

This is not a good yard stick.

Some horse don't like to draw off.

I think some horse also like to "taunt" their competition (I love those).

Still others are not allowed to win by a bunch, such as, Forego
who was always competing with the racing secretary.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...set up a poll. And ask the simple question:

"As a thoroughbred owner, would you rather own the next Rachel...or the next Zenyatta?"

Rachel, no question. First, there's no synth for Zenyatta anymore. Second, manage Rachel better by giving her time off at the farm after her 3yo campaign and she very well couldve come back at 4 even better instead of toasted.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Rachel, no question. First, there's no synth for Zenyatta anymore. Second, manage Rachel better by giving her time off at the farm after her 3yo campaign and she very well couldve come back at 4 even better instead of toasted.

There is enough proof out there to suggest that there is a distinct performance similarity between synthetic and turf. Consequently...Zenyatta might have also been the country's top GRASS horse...if given the opportunity.

[luisbe]

Originally Posted by whodoyoulike

As someone previously mentioned, we have the Z lovers and Z haters on here. Btw, I'm a Z lover and have mentioned it many times.

I take it you're not and my suggestion is for you to search her races even her loss on YouTube and make up your own mind. Too bad Mr. Stauffer is no longer on here because I remember a couple of his race calls when she raced at HP.

And, if you still feel she doesn't deserve to be held in a higher esteem after seeing the videos, then I'll probably be receiving a couple of flags on here.

C'mon, wouldn't have you tried her in the best races against males all year long?
That's faaaar away from being a hater, on the contrary.
I hated what the owner as well as trainer have deprived us to enjoy.
That's your problem, being a fan, it comes from fanatic.

[Nitro]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

One of the best performances, given the circumstances---->YES

THE BEST performance I've ever seen------>Hardly

One of the BEST comments on this thread!

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

As Spargo said, the Man of War of our time.
Never seen anything like it.

What a foolish statement! And how many races has Arrogate run? He’s right about one thing: Only because he’s never seen Man o’ War run. (He couldn’t even spell its name correctly!)

.
You know when I first saw this thread I wondered how the commentary would flow. It amazes me that so many have such poor long term memories about truly legendary horseflesh. Or maybe it’s just that many have not witnessed those great ones of the years gone by? One way or the other it’s obvious that things are being blown out of proportion about Arrogate.

Sure it ran a very good winning race, closing a ton Non-speed favoring racing surface. (Even Mind Your Biscuits closed to win in the big sprint race!) I think breaking poorly was blessing in disguise. Does any one think that Arrogate would have lasted running like it did in the Travers? That’s surely debatable.

I was glad to see that some here refused to go along with all the hype of this performance and tried to perhaps put things in perspective. I too have witnessed some great races, and because so many have referred the way Arrogate closed so impressively I wanted to mention a horse that was blocked in its KY Derby venture, yet still finished 4th to the great Secretariat in that race. Later it became one of NY’s finest handicap horses winning repeatedly using the same running technique many are raving about here: Closing a ton and running Wide to avoid traffic. I believe one of the greatest races I’ve ever seen is its victory in the 1976 1¼ M. Marlboro Cup in 2 minutes flat.

YouTube

Forego's Achievements
In 57 starts, he won 34, placed in 9, and came in third 7 times. His lifetime earnings amounted to $1,938,957. Forego won the Eclipse Award for Outstanding Sprint Horse in 1974, and Eclipse Award for Outstanding Older Male Horse for four years running—1974, 1975, 1976, and 1977. He was voted the Eclipse Award for Horse of the Year for three years straight: 1974, 1975 and 1976. His countless handicap victories made this large son of Forli a handicap champion. His versatility is clearly demonstrated by his wins from 7 furlongs to the 2 mile Jockey Club Gold Cup. Because of his wins, he was constantly asked to carry more than 130 pounds, and still he won usually with a heart pounding burst of speed in the home stretch when he would close like a rocket and win in a photo finish against horses carrying up to 35 pounds less weight!

But if that’s not "WOW" enough for you then perhaps the 100th year remembrance of the greatest horse that ever put a set of hooves on a race track might impress you: The real Big Red.
http://www.drf.com/manowar

http://www.drf.com/blogs/chasing-man-o-war-photo-blog

So when people talk about greatness or great races, why not hold them accountable by having them put their comments in proper perspective. As good as you think Arrogate might be you’ll never it see come close to becoming legendary like these and many other horses who are in fact true legends, because unfortunately it’ll never have that opportunity.

[rsetup]

Originally Posted by Broad Brush

I think some horse also like to "taunt" their competition (I love those).

I like the horses that herd -- on their own.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by rsetup

I like the horses that herd -- on their own.

I like horses that are smarter than the jock that rides them...