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Spalding No! · 03-28-2017, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos

When you are a mare, and you run in back-to-back BC Classics...then you haven't "ducked" ANYBODY...in my opinion.

Except for a streaking Rail Trip and an unbeaten One Caroline...

thaskalos · 03-28-2017, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Except for a streaking Rail Trip and an unbeaten One Caroline...

Yes...Yes. Run that long list of "tested" fillies and mares by us again, Spalding...so we could see how many of them could have held Zenyatta off at the Classic distance.

Spalding No! · 03-28-2017, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whodoyoulike

Thanks, your list of some great fillies/mares brought back some nice memories of horses racing and their races.

You omitted Hollywood Wildcat.

I'd like to ask, are you SoCal handicapper?

Yeah, I considered Hollywood Wildcat, but she was at her best for about 6 months as a 3yo and never quite reached the same heights the following year. I would blame some of that on the alternating dirt and turf starts which tends to disrupt a horse's form. Dance Smartly and You'd Be Surprised suffered from that sort of management, too.

And yes, I follow the southern California circuit for the most part.

Spalding No! · 03-28-2017, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...Yes. Run that long list of "tested" fillies and mares by us again, Spalding...so we could see how many of them could have held Zenyatta off at the Classic distance.

Still don't get the point. You need to break out of your waking sleep. One Caroline didn't even win the race Zenyatta scratched out of.

Zenyatta would have won many of the races she ducked. It wasn't about talent, it was about management.

luisbe · 03-28-2017, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

Being banged around and having to make up a 10L head start given to a field in one of the richest races in the world.

Whatever the fig was , you can add 5L or so to it to get the actual effort.

And won in hand.

Sorry, I'm not in the camp of 'nothing to see here'.

He lost 11 lengths by racing wide.
It's been written here that the track was closer friendly and I have to repeat that 2-3-4-5 at the 1st quarter were in the same order and position at the wire.
If it was so closer friendly, where are Lani, Hopper and Keen Ice?

thaskalos · 03-28-2017, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Still don't get the point. You need to break out of your waking sleep.

Zenyatta would have won many of the races she ducked. It wasn't about talent, it was about management.

I get your "point"...but I think it's nonsensical. What IS your "point"...that superstar horses should be campaigned in order to satisfy the curiosity of horseplayers who argue anonymously behind computer monitors? If WE were owners of a "great" mare...would we rather see our horse campaigned like RACHEL was...so she can be a mere shell of her former self at the advanced age of FOUR?

Zenyatta ended up with all the money...retired at the top of her game...and only the Rachel fanboys deny her, her proper place in history. THAT'S the point...IMO.

whodoyoulike · 03-28-2017, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Yeah, I considered Hollywood Wildcat, but she was at her best for about 6 months as a 3yo and never quite reached the same heights the following year. I would blame some of that on the alternating dirt and turf starts which tends to disrupt a horse's form. Dance Smartly and You'd Be Surprised suffered from that sort of management, too.

And yes, I follow the southern California circuit for the most part.

I had a feeling which is the reason I asked. I sort of felt that in your list you listed several who were competing around the same time. And, I was really into it back during that time frame.

Regarding HW, you may be correct but, I really liked her. She loved to run and win. Like I said I'm glad you listed them, great memories.

luisbe · 03-28-2017, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Macho Again (the horse Rachel was life or death to beat in the Woodward) was, indeed, a tomato can. And Zenyatta soundly crushed Mine that Bird, the horse that finished second in Rachel's Preakness.

Look, what you are saying is that she had an EXCUSE to duck the BC Classic. That doesn't mean she didn't duck it though. She would have gotten her behind kicked by Zenyatta (which you admit) because a Breeders' Cup Classic in California is simply a far tougher race than its meaningless prep, the overrated Woodward Stakes in New York.

Well, it seems to be everybody lost the memory. After Curlin got beaten on synthetic the previous BC Asmussen said Rachel wasn't going to race on it. Waaaaay before the BC took place, that's why the hard campaign.
I also have to say that I wish Z was owned by Jess Jackson and now she'd be in higher esteem.

Spalding No! · 03-28-2017, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I get your "point"

Yeah, after I had to lay it out for you.

Quote:

What IS your "point"...

There goes all that self-remembering...

This is worse than the lyrics to Faith No More's "Epic".

Quote:

superstar horses should be campaigned in order to satisfy the curiosity of horseplayers who argue anonymously behind computer monitors?

No. That list that you so casually dismissed was a veritable litany of top racemares who had no problem taking on males at various stages of their careers (and not only at the Breeder's Cup).

Island Fashion ran in the Big Cap for Christ's sake.

Quote:

If WE were owners of a "great" mare...would we rather see our horse campaigned like RACHEL was...so she can be a mere shell of her former self at the advanced age of FOUR?

Preakness/Haskell/Kentucky Oaks vs. 3 Milady's?

Should we set up a poll?

Quote:

Zenyatta ended up with all the money...and only the Rachel fanboys deny her, her proper place in history. THAT'S the point...IMO.

No, her connections denied her her proper place in history.

thaskalos · 03-28-2017, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Should we set up a poll?

Yes...set up a poll. And ask the simple question:

"As a thoroughbred owner, would you rather own the next Rachel...or the next Zenyatta?"

MargieRose · 03-28-2017, 07:56 PM

Reading through this thread, I see that many are mostly very impressed with how well Arrogate ultimately ran his race, after that difficult and unfortunate start. Although, doesn't he start off most of his races somewhat slowly, anyway?

Of course, Arrogate ran a great race (so did Gun Runner), but had any jockey other than Mike Smith been riding him in the DWC, I believe he would have lost. Yep, Zenyatta taught him well!

However, has everyone forgotten that CA Chrome won last year's DWC while running almost the whole distance with a saddle that was almost ready to drop off of his butt? He ran quite wide, as well. And, to his credit, Victor Espinoza maintained exemplary control of the whole situation throughout the race with, I imagine, little or no experience riding with a grossly slipped saddle.

Last year CA Chrome won the same race, but with a much more impressive win, IMO. That saddle slip presented an obviously dangerous and much more tense ride to the amazing win. Didn't he also break the track record that year, albeit it's only been a dirt track for a few years? Pure CLASS...both horse and jockey.

And, since Zenyatta has been mentioned in this thread, it is my opinion that her 2010 come-from-farrrrrrrrrr-behind with just-a-nose-loss BCC far surpasses what Arrogate accomplished in the DWC.

Vinnie · 03-28-2017, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Or, it further established him as a massive monster of a racehorse.

Yeah, he wasn't up against it because he's even better than we had previously imagined.

Goodness! When that horse (Arrogate) bears down and really steps on it and strides out he is like a freak'in whirlwind. It truly is something special to behold and it just emits goose bumps repeatedly up and down the spinal column...

He is truly something special!!!

thaskalos · 03-28-2017, 08:02 PM

Or, Spalding...you could ask the FOLLOWING poll question:

"Who, in your opinion, rates higher...as far as 'racing greatness' is concerned? The 'tested' Rachel...or the 'untested' Zenyatta"?

MargieRose · 03-28-2017, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

No, her connections denied her her proper place in history.

So, you DO know what her 'proper place in history" should be. That's what matters the most...you DO know!

thaskalos · 03-28-2017, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MargieRose

So, you DO know what her 'proper place in history" should be. That's what matters the most...you DO know!

Yes!

A great horse's career is ultimately unsatisfactory...if Spalding No! isn't impressed by it.