Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 03-28-2017, 03:29 PM   #211
Fager Fan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj View Post
Lol at Zenyatta. Her races were mostly against tomato cans. Talk about an incomplete career, she is examle 101. Never trying a single Big Cap, Gold Cup, or Pacific Classic is embarrassing.

Cigar was a really cool horse that happened to blossom at the right time. He wasn't even all that fast historically speaking.
Can you name one who was as fast for as long as he did? If we get a horse these days who runs 110-120 for 12 or 15 straight races, we'll be bowing.
Fager Fan is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 03:31 PM   #212
Fager Fan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
BTW, I'm with Class on Arrogate's trip.

In addition to everything else, this was a 1 1/4 mile race. We had this discussion wrt to Shared Belief in the BC Classic, but you have plenty of time to get back in the race when you get a bad start at 1 1/4 miles.

It certainly made his win more impressive, and I think Arrogate is awesome, but an incident like this at the start of a 10 furlong race is almost never going to eliminate a good horse, unless (1) the horse loses many more lengths than Arrogate did, (2) the horse is a need the lead horse, (3) the horse lost the opportunity to be the controlling speed in the race, or (4) the incident allowed another horse to get the lead and set a slow pace and win wire to wire.
I'm glad everyone's agreeing with me now. I said it on raceday and got a lot of eye rolls around here.
Fager Fan is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 03:34 PM   #213
Fager Fan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Man that's a giant stretch.

There's no way after that start that you were confident he was going to win.

And he's NEVER been that far back before...totally different running style...so much adversity to overcome.

You can keep spinning it but there's no way you're going to get me to believe Arrogate wasn't up against it BIG TIME after the start of the DWC.
It turned out that he wasn't up against it. The reason why we all thought he was in trouble is that we thought he was a speed horse. We had no idea if he'd still be effective running slow early. We found out that he's versatile and it wasn't a problem.
Fager Fan is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 03:37 PM   #214
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan View Post
It turned out that he wasn't up against it. The reason why we all thought he was in trouble is that we thought he was a speed horse. We had no idea if he'd still be effective running slow early. We found out that he's versatile and it wasn't a problem.
Or, it further established him as a massive monster of a racehorse.

Yeah, he wasn't up against it because he's even better than we had previously imagined.
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 03:44 PM   #215
whodoyoulike
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
... The second problem was that as her reputation grew, the pro Zenyatta rhetoric got a little crazy (comparing her to the greatest horses of all time) and seemed to generate an anti Zenyatta backlash.

The thing is, she was a filly/mare, not a colt. ...
Wasn't part of the backlash due to Rachel Alexandra popularity and Z didn't travel very far east?

But, RA didn't travel to Cali either.
whodoyoulike is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 03:47 PM   #216
Spalding No!
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
The thing is, she was a filly/mare, not a colt. Outside of turf (which is an entirely different thing) many of the greatest fillies/mares ever never tried colts. If they did, they looked for easy spots. She tried the BC Classic twice. The standards should be what she accomplished vs. other great mares.
Bayakoa, Paseana, Personal Ensign, Susan's Girl, Gorgeous, Rags To Riches, Rachel Alexandra, Althea, Life's Magic, Lady's Secret, Chris Evert, Chou Croute, Cascapedia, Dahlia, Davona Dale, Silverbulletday, Excellent Meeting, Desert Vixen, La Prevoyante, Late Bloomer, My Juliet, Our Mims, Revidere, Shuvee, Ta Wee, Typecast, Waya, What A Summer, Before Dawn, Brave Raj, Christmas Past, Family Style, Glorious Song, Gold Beauty, Relaxing, Princess Rooney, Safely Kept, Sacahuista, Track Robbery, Winning Colors, Azeri, Serena's Song, Heavenly Prize, Dance Smartly, Eliza, Meadow Star, Surfside, Sharp Cat, Sweet Catomine, Life Is Sweet, My Flag, Xtra Heat, Havre de Grace...

Quote:
BC Classic loss by a bob after getting pinched at the start (similar but not quite as badly as Arrogate) and then climbing through the stretch the first time on dirt is utter lunacy.
That wasn't her first time on dirt.

Last edited by Spalding No!; 03-28-2017 at 03:48 PM.
Spalding No! is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 03:48 PM   #217
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
I think Shared Belief's bad start had an impact on him. Naturally, my opinions.

1. The track was mildly tilted towards speed that day

2. The only other speed in the race was eliminated at the start and that allowed Bayern to control the pace.

3. Given #1 and #2 you would expect the possibility of a merry-go-ground type race and that's exactly what we got.
I agree, but the stewards' decision (which I think was correct, because they aren't allowed to "handicap" whether Bayern was the only remaining speed) was based on the notion that trouble at the start is not as important as trouble in the stretch, especially in a long race. That was the discussion I was referring to.

Arrogate's bad start didn't create a new pace scenario in the race, so it was just a matter of a good, tractable horse having to get back into the race and come from behind in a 1 1/4 mile race. Not ideal, but not awful trouble either.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 03:53 PM   #218
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No! View Post
Bayakoa, Paseana, Personal Ensign, Susan's Girl, Gorgeous, Rags To Riches, Rachel Alexandra, Althea, Life's Magic, Lady's Secret, Chris Evert, Chou Croute, Cascapedia, Dahlia, Davona Dale, Silverbulletday, Excellent Meeting, Desert Vixen, La Prevoyante, Late Bloomer, My Juliet, Our Mims, Revidere, Shuvee, Ta Wee, Typecast, Waya, What A Summer, Before Dawn, Brave Raj, Christmas Past, Family Style, Glorious Song, Gold Beauty, Relaxing, Princess Rooney, Safely Kept, Sacahuista, Track Robbery, Winning Colors, Azeri, Serena's Song, Heavenly Prize, Dance Smartly, Eliza, Meadow Star, Surfside, Sharp Cat, Sweet Catomine, Life Is Sweet, My Flag, Xtra Heat,...
That's a weird list. Not going to go through all of them, but Personal Ensign, Rachel Alexandra, and Lady's Secret all ducked BC Classics that they would have gotten crushed in. Bayakoa, Lady's Secret, and Azeri got crushed pretty bad in big stakes races against colts. Rags, Althea, Brave Raj, Family Style, Winning Colors, Serena's Song, Meadow Star, and Sharp Cat didn't have careers remotely like Zenyatta.

I mean, you do mention a number of mares I would consider all-time greats-- Chris Evert, Dahlia, Shuvee, Princess Rooney, and Dance Smartly were all the real deal, for instance. But Zenyatta's career, and especially her two BC Classics, compare pretty strongly with those mares' best races.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 03:53 PM   #219
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Arrogate's bad start didn't create a new pace scenario in the race, so it was just a matter of a good, tractable horse having to get back into the race and come from behind in a 1 1/4 mile race. Not ideal, but not awful trouble either.
Arrogate made his move on the turn for home 3-4 wide the entire way...was also wide on the first turn...plus the bad start...plus the fact that the speed never came back to the field (except they came back to Arrogate).

All in all, I'd say it was a pretty awful trip.

Last edited by PaceAdvantage; 03-28-2017 at 03:55 PM.
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 04:06 PM   #220
Spalding No!
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
That's a weird list. Not going to go through all of them, but Personal Ensign, Rachel Alexandra, and Lady's Secret all ducked BC Classics that they would have gotten crushed in. Bayakoa, Lady's Secret, and Azeri got crushed pretty bad in big stakes races against colts. Rags, Althea, Brave Raj, Family Style, Winning Colors, Serena's Song, Meadow Star, and Sharp Cat didn't have careers remotely like Zenyatta.

I mean, you do mention a number of mares I would consider all-time greats-- Chris Evert, Dahlia, Shuvee, Princess Rooney, and Dance Smartly were all the real deal, for instance. But Zenyatta's career, and especially her two BC Classics, compare pretty strongly with those mares' best races.
The point of my post was that you claim that many all-time great females never faced colts. Beyond Inside Information, Riboletta (stateside at least) and maybe Sky Beauty I'm wondering who is missing...

Also, the fact that so many "lesser" mares routinely faced males lends to the argument that Zenyatta's campaigns were restricted by her unbeaten status. Hence zero tries in any of the major open races in CA at the time, which more than likely she would have won more often than not.

If fact, stablemate Life Is Sweet had to sub for her in the Hollywood Gold Cup while she ran a week earlier in the Vanity. And yet all these other great mares were clearly ducking...
Spalding No! is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 04:12 PM   #221
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
That's a weird list. Not going to go through all of them, but Personal Ensign, Rachel Alexandra, and Lady's Secret all ducked BC Classics that they would have gotten crushed in.
RA didn't actually duck the BC. You act as if her connections passed it up to race in a softer spot.
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 04:14 PM   #222
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No! View Post
The point of my post was that you claim that many all-time great females never faced colts. Beyond Inside Information, Riboletta (stateside at least) and maybe Sky Beauty I'm wondering who is missing...

Also, the fact that so many "lesser" mares routinely faced males lends to the argument that Zenyatta's campaigns were restricted by her unbeaten status. Hence zero tries in any of the major open races in CA at the time, which more than likely she would have won more often than not.

If fact, stablemate Life Is Sweet had to sub for her in the Hollywood Gold Cup while she ran a week earlier in the Vanity. And yet all these other great mares were clearly ducking...
If the argument is "Zenyatta should have taken more chances and run against colts more", I agree.

I also think she should have shipped to New York.

She was protected.

But that's neither here nor there when it comes to her actual accomplishments, which were great. In this era, she ran in the most important possible race (other than maybe the Dubai World Cup) twice and won once and got beat by a head the second time.

And as I said, at least three of the horses you mentioned specifically ducked BC Classics they would have lost, so there's that.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 04:15 PM   #223
AltonKelsey
Veteran
 
AltonKelsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan View Post
It turned out that he wasn't up against it. The reason why we all thought he was in trouble is that we thought he was a speed horse. We had no idea if he'd still be effective running slow early. We found out that he's versatile and it wasn't a problem.

Being banged around and having to make up a 10L head start given to a field in one of the richest races in the world.

Whatever the fig was , you can add 5L or so to it to get the actual effort.

And won in hand.

Sorry, I'm not in the camp of 'nothing to see here'.
AltonKelsey is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 04:47 PM   #224
whodoyoulike
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No! View Post
The point of my post was that you claim that many all-time great females never faced colts. ...

Thanks, your list of some great fillies/mares brought back some nice memories of horses racing and their races.

You omitted Hollywood Wildcat.

I'd like to ask, are you SoCal handicapper?
whodoyoulike is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 03-28-2017, 04:49 PM   #225
ReplayRandall
Buckle Up
 
ReplayRandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,614
One of the best performances, given the circumstances---->YES

THE BEST performance I've ever seen------>Hardly
ReplayRandall is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.