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03-28-2017, 03:29 PM
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#211
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
Lol at Zenyatta. Her races were mostly against tomato cans. Talk about an incomplete career, she is examle 101. Never trying a single Big Cap, Gold Cup, or Pacific Classic is embarrassing.
Cigar was a really cool horse that happened to blossom at the right time. He wasn't even all that fast historically speaking.
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Can you name one who was as fast for as long as he did? If we get a horse these days who runs 110-120 for 12 or 15 straight races, we'll be bowing.
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03-28-2017, 03:31 PM
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#212
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
BTW, I'm with Class on Arrogate's trip.
In addition to everything else, this was a 1 1/4 mile race. We had this discussion wrt to Shared Belief in the BC Classic, but you have plenty of time to get back in the race when you get a bad start at 1 1/4 miles.
It certainly made his win more impressive, and I think Arrogate is awesome, but an incident like this at the start of a 10 furlong race is almost never going to eliminate a good horse, unless (1) the horse loses many more lengths than Arrogate did, (2) the horse is a need the lead horse, (3) the horse lost the opportunity to be the controlling speed in the race, or (4) the incident allowed another horse to get the lead and set a slow pace and win wire to wire.
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I'm glad everyone's agreeing with me now. I said it on raceday and got a lot of eye rolls around here.
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03-28-2017, 03:34 PM
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#213
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
Man that's a giant stretch.
There's no way after that start that you were confident he was going to win.
And he's NEVER been that far back before...totally different running style...so much adversity to overcome.
You can keep spinning it but there's no way you're going to get me to believe Arrogate wasn't up against it BIG TIME after the start of the DWC.
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It turned out that he wasn't up against it. The reason why we all thought he was in trouble is that we thought he was a speed horse. We had no idea if he'd still be effective running slow early. We found out that he's versatile and it wasn't a problem.
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03-28-2017, 03:37 PM
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#214
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
It turned out that he wasn't up against it. The reason why we all thought he was in trouble is that we thought he was a speed horse. We had no idea if he'd still be effective running slow early. We found out that he's versatile and it wasn't a problem.
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Or, it further established him as a massive monster of a racehorse.
Yeah, he wasn't up against it because he's even better than we had previously imagined.
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03-28-2017, 03:44 PM
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#215
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Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
... The second problem was that as her reputation grew, the pro Zenyatta rhetoric got a little crazy (comparing her to the greatest horses of all time) and seemed to generate an anti Zenyatta backlash.
The thing is, she was a filly/mare, not a colt. ...
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Wasn't part of the backlash due to Rachel Alexandra popularity and Z didn't travel very far east?
But, RA didn't travel to Cali either.
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03-28-2017, 03:47 PM
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#216
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
The thing is, she was a filly/mare, not a colt. Outside of turf (which is an entirely different thing) many of the greatest fillies/mares ever never tried colts. If they did, they looked for easy spots. She tried the BC Classic twice. The standards should be what she accomplished vs. other great mares.
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Bayakoa, Paseana, Personal Ensign, Susan's Girl, Gorgeous, Rags To Riches, Rachel Alexandra, Althea, Life's Magic, Lady's Secret, Chris Evert, Chou Croute, Cascapedia, Dahlia, Davona Dale, Silverbulletday, Excellent Meeting, Desert Vixen, La Prevoyante, Late Bloomer, My Juliet, Our Mims, Revidere, Shuvee, Ta Wee, Typecast, Waya, What A Summer, Before Dawn, Brave Raj, Christmas Past, Family Style, Glorious Song, Gold Beauty, Relaxing, Princess Rooney, Safely Kept, Sacahuista, Track Robbery, Winning Colors, Azeri, Serena's Song, Heavenly Prize, Dance Smartly, Eliza, Meadow Star, Surfside, Sharp Cat, Sweet Catomine, Life Is Sweet, My Flag, Xtra Heat, Havre de Grace...
Quote:
BC Classic loss by a bob after getting pinched at the start (similar but not quite as badly as Arrogate) and then climbing through the stretch the first time on dirt is utter lunacy.
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That wasn't her first time on dirt.
Last edited by Spalding No!; 03-28-2017 at 03:48 PM.
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03-28-2017, 03:48 PM
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#217
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
I think Shared Belief's bad start had an impact on him. Naturally, my opinions.
1. The track was mildly tilted towards speed that day
2. The only other speed in the race was eliminated at the start and that allowed Bayern to control the pace.
3. Given #1 and #2 you would expect the possibility of a merry-go-ground type race and that's exactly what we got.
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I agree, but the stewards' decision (which I think was correct, because they aren't allowed to "handicap" whether Bayern was the only remaining speed) was based on the notion that trouble at the start is not as important as trouble in the stretch, especially in a long race. That was the discussion I was referring to.
Arrogate's bad start didn't create a new pace scenario in the race, so it was just a matter of a good, tractable horse having to get back into the race and come from behind in a 1 1/4 mile race. Not ideal, but not awful trouble either.
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03-28-2017, 03:53 PM
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#218
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
Bayakoa, Paseana, Personal Ensign, Susan's Girl, Gorgeous, Rags To Riches, Rachel Alexandra, Althea, Life's Magic, Lady's Secret, Chris Evert, Chou Croute, Cascapedia, Dahlia, Davona Dale, Silverbulletday, Excellent Meeting, Desert Vixen, La Prevoyante, Late Bloomer, My Juliet, Our Mims, Revidere, Shuvee, Ta Wee, Typecast, Waya, What A Summer, Before Dawn, Brave Raj, Christmas Past, Family Style, Glorious Song, Gold Beauty, Relaxing, Princess Rooney, Safely Kept, Sacahuista, Track Robbery, Winning Colors, Azeri, Serena's Song, Heavenly Prize, Dance Smartly, Eliza, Meadow Star, Surfside, Sharp Cat, Sweet Catomine, Life Is Sweet, My Flag, Xtra Heat,...
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That's a weird list. Not going to go through all of them, but Personal Ensign, Rachel Alexandra, and Lady's Secret all ducked BC Classics that they would have gotten crushed in. Bayakoa, Lady's Secret, and Azeri got crushed pretty bad in big stakes races against colts. Rags, Althea, Brave Raj, Family Style, Winning Colors, Serena's Song, Meadow Star, and Sharp Cat didn't have careers remotely like Zenyatta.
I mean, you do mention a number of mares I would consider all-time greats-- Chris Evert, Dahlia, Shuvee, Princess Rooney, and Dance Smartly were all the real deal, for instance. But Zenyatta's career, and especially her two BC Classics, compare pretty strongly with those mares' best races.
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03-28-2017, 03:53 PM
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#219
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Arrogate's bad start didn't create a new pace scenario in the race, so it was just a matter of a good, tractable horse having to get back into the race and come from behind in a 1 1/4 mile race. Not ideal, but not awful trouble either.
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Arrogate made his move on the turn for home 3-4 wide the entire way...was also wide on the first turn...plus the bad start...plus the fact that the speed never came back to the field (except they came back to Arrogate).
All in all, I'd say it was a pretty awful trip.
Last edited by PaceAdvantage; 03-28-2017 at 03:55 PM.
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03-28-2017, 04:06 PM
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#220
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
That's a weird list. Not going to go through all of them, but Personal Ensign, Rachel Alexandra, and Lady's Secret all ducked BC Classics that they would have gotten crushed in. Bayakoa, Lady's Secret, and Azeri got crushed pretty bad in big stakes races against colts. Rags, Althea, Brave Raj, Family Style, Winning Colors, Serena's Song, Meadow Star, and Sharp Cat didn't have careers remotely like Zenyatta.
I mean, you do mention a number of mares I would consider all-time greats-- Chris Evert, Dahlia, Shuvee, Princess Rooney, and Dance Smartly were all the real deal, for instance. But Zenyatta's career, and especially her two BC Classics, compare pretty strongly with those mares' best races.
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The point of my post was that you claim that many all-time great females never faced colts. Beyond Inside Information, Riboletta (stateside at least) and maybe Sky Beauty I'm wondering who is missing...
Also, the fact that so many "lesser" mares routinely faced males lends to the argument that Zenyatta's campaigns were restricted by her unbeaten status. Hence zero tries in any of the major open races in CA at the time, which more than likely she would have won more often than not.
If fact, stablemate Life Is Sweet had to sub for her in the Hollywood Gold Cup while she ran a week earlier in the Vanity. And yet all these other great mares were clearly ducking...
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03-28-2017, 04:12 PM
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#221
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
That's a weird list. Not going to go through all of them, but Personal Ensign, Rachel Alexandra, and Lady's Secret all ducked BC Classics that they would have gotten crushed in.
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RA didn't actually duck the BC. You act as if her connections passed it up to race in a softer spot.
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03-28-2017, 04:14 PM
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#222
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
The point of my post was that you claim that many all-time great females never faced colts. Beyond Inside Information, Riboletta (stateside at least) and maybe Sky Beauty I'm wondering who is missing...
Also, the fact that so many "lesser" mares routinely faced males lends to the argument that Zenyatta's campaigns were restricted by her unbeaten status. Hence zero tries in any of the major open races in CA at the time, which more than likely she would have won more often than not.
If fact, stablemate Life Is Sweet had to sub for her in the Hollywood Gold Cup while she ran a week earlier in the Vanity. And yet all these other great mares were clearly ducking...
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If the argument is "Zenyatta should have taken more chances and run against colts more", I agree.
I also think she should have shipped to New York.
She was protected.
But that's neither here nor there when it comes to her actual accomplishments, which were great. In this era, she ran in the most important possible race (other than maybe the Dubai World Cup) twice and won once and got beat by a head the second time.
And as I said, at least three of the horses you mentioned specifically ducked BC Classics they would have lost, so there's that.
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03-28-2017, 04:15 PM
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#223
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
It turned out that he wasn't up against it. The reason why we all thought he was in trouble is that we thought he was a speed horse. We had no idea if he'd still be effective running slow early. We found out that he's versatile and it wasn't a problem.
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Being banged around and having to make up a 10L head start given to a field in one of the richest races in the world.
Whatever the fig was , you can add 5L or so to it to get the actual effort.
And won in hand.
Sorry, I'm not in the camp of 'nothing to see here'.
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03-28-2017, 04:47 PM
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#224
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Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
The point of my post was that you claim that many all-time great females never faced colts. ...
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Thanks, your list of some great fillies/mares brought back some nice memories of horses racing and their races.
You omitted Hollywood Wildcat.
I'd like to ask, are you SoCal handicapper?
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03-28-2017, 04:49 PM
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#225
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Buckle Up
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,614
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One of the best performances, given the circumstances---->YES
THE BEST performance I've ever seen------>Hardly
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