Thanks to HANA and BillW......

[tzipi]

CJ has made a very good point that maybe he's comfortable with. If he bets a good amount of money at Aqu, Bel, Sar, the odds won't plummet and kill his value and price because of the decent size pools. I agree with him.

[Rook]

Originally Posted by tzipi

CJ has made a very good point that maybe he's comfortable with. If he bets a good amount of money at Aqu, Bel, Sar, the odds won't plummet and kill his value and price because of the decent size pools. I agree with him.

Too bad it's hardest to find good value at NYRA compared to the better priced tracks. If everyone on PA submitted their wagering histories, basic math would reveal which tracks we should stay away from.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Rook

Too bad NYRA has been gouging you all winter. You could have been able to afford to bet a lot more there.

I don't mind paying more for a good steak as compared to going to Sizzler. I pay more to go see the Rangers than I do the RedHawks, and more for the Thunder than to see the 66ers. Is that gouging too? You have yet to address the issues with small pools. I prefer to get paid what a bet should pay, not the "pool limit".

Like I said, I bet plenty of other tracks. I just educate myself so I know how much to bet at each place most efficiently. If I have to pay a little more to bet in the biggest pools, I'm ok with that. It works out in the end because my bets have less effect on my payouts.

Nobody wishes more than I do that we had HUGE pools and LOW takeout. But since we don't, and I can't control either, I deal with it.

[cj]

I've yet to hear a good defense of Sam Houston being high up in the rankings. The place was a joke this past meet.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by cj

I've yet to hear a good defense of Sam Houston being high up in the rankings. The place was a joke this past meet.

Contraction comes to mind, again.........

[Rook]

Originally Posted by cj

I don't mind paying more for a good steak as compared to going to Sizzler. I pay more to go see the Rangers than I do the RedHawks, and more for the Thunder than to see the 66ers. Is that gouging too?

If you get more entertainment out of NYRA than the other tracks then you and I are very different horseplayers. I get entertainment only out of the tracks where I win.

Originally Posted by cj

You have yet to address the issues with small pools. I prefer to get paid what a bet should pay, not the "pool limit".

What would you like me to address? The fact that I wish that the high rebate tracks had bigger pools? Of course I do. That is why I am promoting them in this thread. They deserve bettors attention. The circuit that charges the highest host fees sure doesn't.

Originally Posted by cj

If I have to pay a little more to bet in the biggest pools, I'm ok with that. It works out in the end....

No it doesn't. In any race it can work out but at the end of each year, horseplayers in aggregate are farther behind with NYRA tracks then they are with the others.

Originally Posted by cj

Nobody wishes more than I do that we had HUGE pools and LOW takeout. But since we don't, and I can't control either, I deal with it.

Yes, earlier in this thread you acknowledged you dealt with it by betting less at NYRA this past winter. I don't blame you. It's hard to be fully in the game at high takeout levels.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Rook

If you get more entertainment out of NYRA than the other tracks then you and I are very different horseplayers. I get entertainment only out of the tracks where I win.


What would you like me to address? The fact that I wish that the high rebate tracks had bigger pools? Of course I do. That is why I am promoting them in this thread. They deserve bettors attention. The circuit that charges the highest host fees sure doesn't.


No it doesn't. In any race it can work out but at the end of each year, horseplayers in aggregate are farther behind with NYRA tracks then they are with the others.


Yes, earlier in this thread you acknowledged you dealt with it by betting less at NYRA this past winter. I don't blame you. It's hard to be fully in the game at high takeout levels.

If I didn't do well at NYRA tracks I'd stop betting them, just like any other track.

You say it doesn't work out in the end, but that isn't true for me. I can't speak for others. I bet less this winter because there were too many small fields and maiden races with bad horses, but that is pretty much everywhere, not just NYRA.

Like I've said (and you've ignored), it takes a whole lot of rebate to make up for thousands you don't get because pools are too small. Like I also said, you can't spend ROI, just money.

[Robert Fischer]

It looks like everybody is making solid points. There can be multiple truths, as long as each strategy is beneficial.

It seems to me that the rebate side of the equation plays a major role in these ratings.

What resources do you guys offer regarding educating players about maximizing their rebate opportunity?

[cj]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

It looks like everybody is making solid points. There can be multiple truths, as long as each strategy is beneficial.

It seems to me that the rebate side of the equation plays a major role in these ratings.

What resources do you guys offer regarding educating players about maximizing their rebate opportunity?

I don't think rebates have anything to do with the ratings.

[Jens]

Unfortunately, rebates are not an option for a large segment of racing fans.

[Rook]

Originally Posted by cj

You say it doesn't work out in the end, but that isn't true for me.

Due to the sky high effective takeout, it is a mathematical fact that it doesn't work for horseplayers as a whole. I'll have to take your word for it that you have bet the many millions of dollars across multiple tracks to prove that NYRA works for you. I'd bet with some more diverse experience you would come to a different conclusion.

Originally Posted by cj

Like I've said (and you've ignored), it takes a whole lot of rebate to make up for thousands you don't get because pools are too small. Like I also said, you can't spend ROI, just money.

I charitably ignored the comment because it lacks merit. A whole lot of rebate is exactly what these tracks offer and that's what makes them so superior to NYRA.

A large player can run up rebates into the hundreds of thousands and beyond each year by playing these smaller tracks day after day. Betting one percent of the total handle at a place like CT or Pen will get you around $10k per card worth of action and well over $1k in rebate. This is not a trivial amount to the vast majority of the people on this board.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Rook

A large player can run up rebates into the hundreds of thousands and beyond each year by playing these smaller tracks day after day. Betting one percent of the total handle at place like CT or Pen will get you around $10k per card worth of action and well over $1k in rebate. This is not a trivial amount to the vast majority of the people on this board.

The vast majority of people on this board are not large players and do not bet enough to get them anywhere near the kinds of rebates you are talking about. The truth is the actual takeout is more important to almost all of them than effective takeout.

The person betting $1 trifectas that pay $1,500 at a small track that would have paid much more at a big track are going to have a hard time catching up.

[Rook]

Originally Posted by cj

The vast majority of people on this board are not large players ....

If they are not large players, then they don't have to stress about the size of their bets killing their prices. There are times they will get short changed but then again due to the smaller size of the pools, the payoffs are inefficient and just as often the price comes in way better than expected. Instead of a $1500 payoff at NYRA, a whole pool of $6k could be swept.

The reason I entered this thread is that I can speak from experience. In front of me is a spreadsheet that shows my all time profit and loss over 78 different tracks.

AQU is ranked #47, Bel is #73 and Sar is #75. Southern Cailfornia, the other circuit that charges outrageous host fees has Hol at #30, SA at #70 and DMR rock bottom at #78.

The two things these circuits have in common is tough competition attracted by the big pools and horrible effective takeout. A bettor's paradise it is not!

For those that think NYRA is so great, I would love to know the extent of their experience with lessor tracks.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Rook

If they are not large players, then they don't have to stress about the size of their bets killing their prices. There are times they will get short changed but then again due to the smaller size of the pools, the payoffs are inefficient and just as often the price comes in way better than expected. Instead of a $1500 payoff at NYRA, a whole pool of $6k could be swept.

The reason I entered this thread is that I can speak from experience. In front of me is a spreadsheet that shows my all time profit and loss over 78 different tracks.

AQU is ranked #47, Bel is #73 and Sar is #75. Southern Cailfornia, the other circuit that charges outrageous host fees has Hol at #30, SA at #70 and DMR rock bottom at #78.

The two things these circuits have in common is tough competition attracted by the big pools and horrible effective takeout. A bettor's paradise it is not!

For those that think NYRA is so great, I would love to know the extent of their experience with lessor tracks.

I have no doubt those are your results. But, I suspect you have built your play around getting rebates. Therefore, it really isn't a surprise that you get the worst results where you get the worst rebate.

I have a lot of experience too, and the times of benefiting from inefficient P3/P4/Tri/Super pools is FAR outweighed by the times you get short changed. There is no chance your "just as often" argument is true in my experience.

I think we've pretty much run this into the ground, so I will move on so this thread can get back to the HANA ratings. Rebates aren't part of them. You've made your point you think they should be. Time to move on.

[Rook]

Originally Posted by cj

I have no doubt those are your results. But, I suspect you have built your play around getting rebates. Therefore, it really isn't a surprise that you get the worst results where you get the worst rebate.

Yes, I have absolutely built my play around low effective takeout tracks. Rebates are the only way to get low takeout so those are the best places to play. NYRA is the worst example of this so I have to take issue with those that think NYRA is a horseplayer's friend.

Originally Posted by cj

I have a lot of experience too, and the times of benefiting from inefficient P3/P4/Tri/Super pools is FAR outweighed by the times you get short changed. There is no chance your "just as often" argument is true in my experience.

Then frankly you don't have the requisite experience with enough tracks and a wide range of pools. I'm sorry you did not share with us how many minor league tracks have provided you with a worse P&L than NYRA tracks.

If small tracks were that bad then there is no way that a guy with absolutely zero connections could have places like CT, DED and PID in his top 10 P&L list.

One problem with small tracks is that you do have to be aware of the typical pool size. It's kind of crazy that the last race run at WRD had an exacta pool of $33.9k but a Pick 3 pool of only $1.6k but those are the kind of things you have to know if you are betting more than a few bucks or extreme longshots.