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Old 12-09-2023, 11:26 AM   #46
Sheffwed
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Class Action Lawsuit

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Originally Posted by sjk View Post
Makes me wonder again about the information that is not displayed to the public (blind pools) but which must be known to the racetracks if not in real time then after the fact to empower AI analysis.

I have always dismissed the concerns that the CAW teams would be allowed to access this information because the tracks would understand how damaging to their on-track business it would be. Obviously I was being naive.
there are some lawyers on here

isn't there scope for a Class Action Lawsuit against Stronach and NYRA on the back of this? I'm think Reg FD

https://www.investor.gov/introductio...-regulation-fd

Horse Race Wagering is investing, it certainly is with CAWs, it wouldn't shock me if Hedge Funds were behind them, hence what is disclosed that might be financially material should by law be available to all wagerers, let alone the same opportunities should be equally accessible
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Old 12-09-2023, 11:43 AM   #47
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there are some lawyers on here

isn't there scope for a Class Action Lawsuit against Stronach and NYRA on the back of this? I'm think Reg FD

https://www.investor.gov/introductio...-regulation-fd

Horse Race Wagering is investing, it certainly is with CAWs, it wouldn't shock me if Hedge Funds were behind them, hence what is disclosed that might be financially material should by law be available to all wagerers, let alone the same opportunities should be equally accessible
A lawsuit is really the only way to go with this. It would have to be very creative with the goal being discovery. Big problem is funding it. These things can be crazy expensive
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Old 12-09-2023, 12:41 PM   #48
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i think its wrong to bash fellow board members here. i get bashed all the time and just ignore the insults.

as far as the CAW goes, I have to thank them for making me disinterested in betting. to take up my love of the game I bought a few cheap horses and I am training them now getting them ready for their first race. one of them looks surprisingly real good.

with HISA running around and cleaning up the game from a different aspect of it, things are better for little people like me to be able to compete at the game. Horse racing is the very best sport for individuals to get involved in, it is the only one that can offer fan participation in many ways. right here and right now, you are getting a fighting chance to succeed at the game owning race horses individually or with a few friends.

the conclusion is, that instead of discussing the detriments of CAW and bashing other board members that are also enthusiastic race fans, take a step back and stop betting to support the CAW and do something more productive and take up ownership.
That was some bold move to buy into ownership.....

If your horse(s) don't produced checks coming in ...then your doomed

The monthly fee ( 5000+ ) will keep coming as long as your horse is stabled

I wish you well!!

Last edited by Saratoga; 12-09-2023 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 12-09-2023, 01:26 PM   #49
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A lawsuit is really the only way to go with this. It would have to be very creative with the goal being discovery. Big problem is funding it. These things can be crazy expensive
Honestly they should really consider doing away with rebates altogether at this point. It ran its course for almost 25 years now and hasn't been good for the game. Everyone should have to beat everyone else straight up. There shouldn't be a subset of people playing at what amounts to a significant takeout reduction vs everyone else. The market has the SEC, these guys likely just do whatever drives the bottom line, that's human nature which is why oversight is needed when public money is at stake. Not only that, the CAW teams are good enough to take on the public straight up and still make money. Will it be as much money? I don't know but this practice of rebating should really be phased out over the next year or two. Let them adjust their algorithms for a soft landing, then when the dust settles whatever they make they make, whatever they make after rebates are phased out is all they ever deserved to make in the first place. If that isn't enough then let them push to lower takeout. License the teams to offer bets to book themselves and kick a percentage of profit back to the tracks. Let them setup and run an exchange, let them serve up some fixed odds bets to the public. The teams seem to have the tech and know what to do with it where as the tracks themselves I'm not so sure about.
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Old 12-09-2023, 03:05 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Saratoga View Post
That was some bold move to buy into ownership.....

If your horse(s) don't produced checks coming in ...then your doomed

The monthly fee ( 5000+ ) will keep coming as long as your horse is stabled

I wish you well!!
He’s been in the business before….he knows what he’s getting into.
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Old 12-09-2023, 03:37 PM   #51
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He’s been in the business before….he knows what he’s getting into.
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Old 12-10-2023, 07:30 AM   #52
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Perhaps the tracks don't even need to pay for their financial interest in the CAW teams. They can pay with information.

What sort of information would be considered unethical for the tracks to provide to their favored teams? Information about betting in the blind pools? Surveillance video of the barn area? Follow the vets. lol.

The whole thing seems unethical to me so is there a line drawn anywhere?
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:40 AM   #53
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If that isn't enough then let them push to lower takeout.
If they eliminated the rebates, they could "theoretically" lower the take across the board by some amount and still break even. The major question is how much handle would they lose from the CAWs and how much would they gain from everyone else. My guess is that they'd lose a lot more than they'd gain, certainly in the short term.

There are things that are fairer for everyone, including players like us, but that might do serious damage to the bottom lines of the tracks. I'm not sure if anyone knows what the numbers are that produce a better game without doing damage. It might even be too late to reverse course without doing damage.

I've come to the conclusion that the economics of this sport are so bad even with all the casino money, there may be no way to fix it without a ton of short term damage.
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Old 12-10-2023, 12:51 PM   #54
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Perhaps the tracks don't even need to pay for their financial interest in the CAW teams. They can pay with information.

What sort of information would be considered unethical for the tracks to provide to their favored teams? Information about betting in the blind pools? Surveillance video of the barn area? Follow the vets. lol.

The whole thing seems unethical to me so is there a line drawn anywhere?
I get that it hurts when respectable people say inaccurate things, but this line of thinking, and you're far from the only one here, is just badly confused. I get the bad optics, I really do, but none of that means what is being said and implied here. The grassy knoll doesn't help anyone, here or in life.

I think it's interesting that while everyone is suggesting that somehow NYRA is doing, well, whatever you seem to come up with, nobody mentions that NYRA told the CAW groups that they couldn't bet into the WPS pools with less than two minutes to post. That sure isn't congruous to what is being (incorrectly) suggested in this thread. Just a thought.
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Old 12-10-2023, 01:30 PM   #55
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Thanks for confirming that NYRA is above the sorts of things I suggested.
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Old 12-10-2023, 02:43 PM   #56
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I get that it hurts when respectable people say inaccurate things, but this line of thinking, and you're far from the only one here, is just badly confused. I get the bad optics, I really do, but none of that means what is being said and implied here. The grassy knoll doesn't help anyone, here or in life.

I think it's interesting that while everyone is suggesting that somehow NYRA is doing, well, whatever you seem to come up with, nobody mentions that NYRA told the CAW groups that they couldn't bet into the WPS pools with less than two minutes to post. That sure isn't congruous to what is being (incorrectly) suggested in this thread. Just a thought.
Tracks need to be open about deals with CAWs, rebates, and whatever added perks they have. They should be spelled out in writing. Why is it all a big secret? Until that happens, and this is hardly a NYRA only problem, nobody is ever going to have trust in those running the game. People are leaving and I don't see that changing any time soon.
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Old 12-10-2023, 02:55 PM   #57
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Tracks need to be open about deals with CAWs, rebates, and whatever added perks they have. They should be spelled out in writing. Why is it all a big secret? Until that happens, and this is hardly a NYRA only problem, nobody is ever going to have trust in those running the game. People are leaving and I don't see that changing any time soon.
Nobody seems to trust them anyway.

What people really refuse to understand is why the CAWs actually have an advantage. They have spent a lot of money, time, and brain power developing a very powerful tool for analyzing races. One that requires constant tinkering and endless inputting of data. They have used advanced regression ( at the very least ) analysis to identify and weigh many more variables than likely any of us come close to looking at.

I wish they didn't exist. So what. Rebates surely created them. The smartest people knew this was an inevitability once rebates began.
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Old 12-10-2023, 03:02 PM   #58
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I get that it hurts when respectable people say inaccurate things, but this line of thinking, and you're far from the only one here, is just badly confused. I get the bad optics, I really do, but none of that means what is being said and implied here. The grassy knoll doesn't help anyone, here or in life.

I think it's interesting that while everyone is suggesting that somehow NYRA is doing, well, whatever you seem to come up with, nobody mentions that NYRA told the CAW groups that they couldn't bet into the WPS pools with less than two minutes to post. That sure isn't congruous to what is being (incorrectly) suggested in this thread. Just a thought.
Nobody is suggesting that NYra is doing well. How can they do well when they price out their entire customer base and give good to great pricing to a tiny fraction of the betting population. It is the arrogant clowns in your industry that can take credit for destroying your industry. You know, the ones that used to proudly proclaim how smart they were for having rebates. “We are smarter than everyone else.” Yeah right. How is it working for them? The wps pool bandaid is not going to save the industry.
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Old 12-10-2023, 03:33 PM   #59
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Nobody seems to trust them anyway.

What people really refuse to understand is why the CAWs actually have an advantage. They have spent a lot of money, time, and brain power developing a very powerful tool for analyzing races. One that requires constant tinkering and endless inputting of data. They have used advanced regression ( at the very least ) analysis to identify and weigh many more variables than likely any of us come close to looking at.

I wish they didn't exist. So what. Rebates surely created them. The smartest people knew this was an inevitability once rebates began.
I get it, but at the end of the day, CAWs are our competition and we have a right to know what we are competing against logistically. I probably bet 30 to 40% of what I did 10 years ago (and maybe 20% of the races) and this is largely the reason. I should be betting more at this point in life. I love the game and have more disposable income. But I find fewer and fewer bets as risks worth taking.
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Old 12-10-2023, 03:59 PM   #60
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Nobody seems to trust them anyway.

What people really refuse to understand is why the CAWs actually have an advantage. They have spent a lot of money, time, and brain power developing a very powerful tool for analyzing races. One that requires constant tinkering and endless inputting of data. They have used advanced regression ( at the very least ) analysis to identify and weigh many more variables than likely any of us come close to looking at.

I wish they didn't exist. So what. Rebates surely created them. The smartest people knew this was an inevitability once rebates began.
We all know the CAWs have invested a lot of money and man hours building their handicapping models, ability to scan various pools looking for value, and then submitting their bets very late. I rarely hear semi serious players complain about that as long as the access to information is the same for all.

I think some people are even OK with volume based rebates.

The problem is that the rebates for CAWs are seemingly so large (even though no one seems to know exactly what they are) that it guarantees huge volumes of CAW wagering that in turn make the pools very efficient. The tracks in turn are benefitting from that increased CAW handle while killing the number opportunities and ROI for everyone else. That's making the game obsolete for almost everyone else even if they are also operating with databases, regression analysis, and decades of manual learning.

If the tracks care about their entire customer base and not just the whales, IMO the volume rebates have to be lowered a bit and the overall take has to be lowered a bit to keep more people in the game. Otherwise, the pools will become so efficient, all they will have left are whales and a handful of total fools. Eventually there won't be enough total fools to keep the whales in the game either even with high rebates.

As I said earlier though, getting from where we are now to where we have to be could be quite painful for the tracks and a lot of other people. The industry was so focused on the short term for so many years (courting this CAW money, becoming dependent on casino money etc..) that undoing it and creating a healthy game with sound stand alone economics for the industry may be impossible without a debacle for some.

This industry is run a lot like the Federal Govt. It has been kicking the can down the road for a long time and we are running straight towards a dead end road.
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