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Old 12-06-2023, 06:00 PM   #31
AndyC
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Hold on - this is way beyond the realm of rational discussion and transforms a business issue to a personal attack on an employee.

Andy does not need to answer for every NYRA fault; if that were the case, there are many employees of Purdue Pharma who have much more to disclose than anyone on this forum.

The fact that Andy engages here and on other social media platforms should not be chastised. Instead, make the conversation constructive - Andy is listening and working with the community even if he cannot affect change.

If you disagree with me, let me know any other conduit that you have to engage with Dave O'Rourke and the NYRA team.

I too appreciate that Andy has a presence on this forum. He provides information not readily available to most of us. And just like every horseplayer/handicapper that I have ever met he has strong opinions that he expresses from time to time. And those opinions aren't always expressed in a textbook Dale Carnegie fashion.



It is hard to a constructive conversation with somebody who has a conflict of interest, even if the conflict is one of perception and not one in fact.
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Old 12-06-2023, 06:47 PM   #32
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Uh, you don't get to have a legitimate "opinion" - you are the problem



And talk about "sheer lunacy"... that is the {person} from the entity which is still clinging to dollar breakage in a modern world where everybody else is debating penny breakage from a point of nickel- or dime-breakage, trying to defend his mixed-up organization against another pointing out the error in NYRA having always been for the player

To "discuss" this with somebody of your ilk is the sheer lunacy...

For as most others know, you cannot be any part of any solution until you cease to be the problem.


Put differently, you are the craziness in this scenario.

Now Bash away, Bash away, Bash away all !

Merry Christmas kind sir.
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Old 12-06-2023, 07:22 PM   #33
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Now Bash away, Bash away, Bash away all !

Merry Christmas kind sir.
That's the Spirit of the Season!

I think people should just chill out a bit ... maybe dance/twirl a little to the Grateful Dead ...

https://youtu.be/okukvuUQnj4?si=6e18n3mjuo4B709K
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Old 12-07-2023, 10:42 AM   #34
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i think its wrong to bash fellow board members here. i get bashed all the time and just ignore the insults.

as far as the CAW goes, I have to thank them for making me disinterested in betting. to take up my love of the game I bought a few cheap horses and I am training them now getting them ready for their first race. one of them looks surprisingly real good.

with HISA running around and cleaning up the game from a different aspect of it, things are better for little people like me to be able to compete at the game. Horse racing is the very best sport for individuals to get involved in, it is the only one that can offer fan participation in many ways. right here and right now, you are getting a fighting chance to succeed at the game owning race horses individually or with a few friends.

the conclusion is, that instead of discussing the detriments of CAW and bashing other board members that are also enthusiastic race fans, take a step back and stop betting to support the CAW and do something more productive and take up ownership.
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Old 12-07-2023, 04:21 PM   #35
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Say it aint so Oaklawn? Joining in on the CAW fun.
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Old 12-07-2023, 04:28 PM   #36
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Say it aint so Oaklawn? Joining in on the CAW fun.
Next thing you know, you're going to hear about the internet. If you have been paying any attention to Oaklawn at all, you would have seen the significant late odds swings.
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Old 12-07-2023, 04:34 PM   #37
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Pardon my ignorance but I strictly play multi race exotics like pick threes and fours. Do the CAWS have a lot of impact in those type of wagers or are they mainly focused on the pools where they can see the current payoffs like win,exacta,double etc.
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Old 12-07-2023, 05:56 PM   #38
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Pardon my ignorance but I strictly play multi race exotics like pick threes and fours. Do the CAWS have a lot of impact in those type of wagers or are they mainly focused on the pools where they can see the current payoffs like win,exacta,double etc.
I think it's safe to say if there's money to be made in any pool anywhere then one or more of the teams almost surely has at least some presence in it. Just as you or I can see first leg probables and do look-aheads into the second leg that's a significant portion of any horizontal sequence, beyond leg 2 what is visible to them is only speculation. I don't believe they have any more (horizontal tote data) to actually dig into but I could be wrong and I have no first-hand knowledge of it. If they are allowed more I would have a problem with it but with the rebates and what is known to be available you already have a very formidable opponent on your hands.
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Old 12-07-2023, 07:04 PM   #39
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Pardon my ignorance but I strictly play multi race exotics like pick threes and fours. Do the CAWS have a lot of impact in those type of wagers or are they mainly focused on the pools where they can see the current payoffs like win,exacta,double etc.
Absolutely. This is also where rebates really come into play. When you hear guys like Mike Maloney and a few other well rebated bettors (but not caw) you hear that they pay about 10% sometimes 11% per pool takeout. So if you are playing a 22% takeout pick 3 or pick 4 pool, even these guys are making a good 11% or even 12% rebate. But we also know that the caw gets substantially higher rebates than these other well rebated bettors. So in general it would probably not be a stretch to think that some of the larger caws are getting a 15 or 16% rebate on a 22% takeout pick 3 or pick 4 pool. Now with the Stronach and Nyra going partners into these caw betting syndicates, my point that TLG, did not like very much, but he hasn't responded to my post explaining my reasoning, is that they theoretically get much more back (perhaps as much as the entire 22% takeout or very close to it). They were destroying these pools before. Can you imagine if what they are doing to them now even if they are getting 3 or 4% more. Look at your own results. Add a 15 or 16% rebate to what you already collected. Just imagine.

Oliver Crunk has posted on here that the non teams at NYRA lost about 28% in just about every exotic pool there was over a 10 year period. That was I assume before the "partnership".

This industry has evolved far beyond an unlevel playing field. It has just become a complete shift of capital from everyone else to the caw. The fact that the powers that be instead of taking corrective action seem to double and triple down on this rebate stuff is extremely disheartening. I am really at the point where I may just look to bet offshore again (I haven't bet offshore in many years) or just abandon the sport altogether. Partnering with the caw assuming that is indeed what has happened (nobody has denied it) is probably the last straw.
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Old 12-08-2023, 09:57 AM   #40
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So if you are playing a 22% takeout pick 3 or pick 4 pool, even these guys are making a good 11% or even 12% rebate.

I think you left out the 8% (or so) that the ADW/CAW has to pay for the right to take that bet. It used to be much lower but tracks/horsemen's groups have been pushing it up over the last 20 years.
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Old 12-08-2023, 11:13 AM   #41
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I think you left out the 8% (or so) that the ADW/CAW has to pay for the right to take that bet. It used to be much lower but tracks/horsemen's groups have been pushing it up over the last 20 years.
Even if so, 22% takeout minus 8% signal fee leaves 14% to divvy up between the ADW and CAW. The 11 or 12% cited is possible, though maybe a little high. But most P4s have a higher take than 22%.
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Old 12-08-2023, 11:17 AM   #42
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I think you left out the 8% (or so) that the ADW/CAW has to pay for the right to take that bet. It used to be much lower but tracks/horsemen's groups have been pushing it up over the last 20 years.

So is there not room for a 11 to 12 percent rebate if they pay 8% on a 22% takeout bet. I am not making this up. Mike Maloney says in his bet with the best Podcast that he pays 10 to 11% takeout on every pool. I am pretty sure Marshall Graham said the same thing and I think someone else also said the same thing (maybe Dennis Montero).
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Old 12-08-2023, 12:27 PM   #43
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You're all getting into the crux of the matter and *why* the tracks want to have ownership in the biggest rebate shops. To think the likes of Elite aren't getting at least 10% in Pn's in particular is naive. When the host fee collector and the rebate shop exchange money from the same pocket, you can prolly guess why this has been a growth sector for racing the last 20 years and why jackpots were rolled out a decade ago. But we're getting to the point where there's no more meat on the bone left for anybody. It's worked to keep handle stable for the last 20 years but there is definitely a ceiling to this and the racing industry is probably at it. You can't "grow" this way (rebate, skin the recs, jackpot bets) forever. You can't rebate more than rake and the teams can't really get *that* much volume in without betting against themselves.
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Old 12-08-2023, 02:00 PM   #44
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There are multiple issues here.

1. The ethics of the arrangement

2. How changing the arrangement would impact handle and the track's bottom line in the short and long term

3. How the arrangement impacts players like us

4. How all these things impact the long term health of the industry

5. Other
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Old 12-09-2023, 06:25 AM   #45
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Makes me wonder again about the information that is not displayed to the public (blind pools) but which must be known to the racetracks if not in real time then after the fact to empower AI analysis.

I have always dismissed the concerns that the CAW teams would be allowed to access this information because the tracks would understand how damaging to their on-track business it would be. Obviously I was being naive.
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