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Old 12-06-2023, 10:44 AM   #16
Bullet Plane
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As per usual, Crist and Beyer laser beam into the central problems of the game.

Fixed odds wagering I think is a work around the industry needs to strongly look at.
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Old 12-06-2023, 11:20 AM   #17
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the CAW technology (beyond large late batch bets) and the Concentration of Power (including the incentives that it creates) is the focus of my apprehension of them.

Don't care about late odds changes.
And, already see through the lack of transparency.
Don't want to discount these two things as the perception of integrity is more important than what pertains to me.
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Old 12-06-2023, 11:35 AM   #18
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It's actually 100% accurate despite what your Twitter masters tell you.
I'm not on twitter. I've been playing NYRA for almost two decades but raising takeout on p6 carryover days, CAW teams crushing exacta and trifecta payouts, and taking p5 sequences off the turn after the money has poured in (or just before they are about to load into the gate for the first leg) is the opposite of "player friendly".
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Old 12-06-2023, 11:47 AM   #19
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This is really bad and inaccurate. It’s also nonsensical. I get that it’s a bad look, but suggesting they get almost the entire takeout back is sheer lunacy. Decisions can’t be made just because too many people are caught up in irrational conspiracy theories.


Rational discussion can only be had if the arguments on both sides are sane and rational. Suggesting an entity can somehow make money when any profit margin is ceded is not rational…nor is it well thought out.


Before I get inaccurately accused of anything here, I’m not offering a defense of this relationship, or even an opinion either way, as that would be obviously inappropriate, I’m just trying to head off craziness in an attempt to somehow “discuss” this.
How much do you believe they get back in the form of rebates from Elite?

Do they get anything from individual tracks over and above what Elite rebates them?
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Old 12-06-2023, 11:48 AM   #20
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I'm not on twitter. I've been playing NYRA for almost two decades but raising takeout on p6 carryover days, CAW teams crushing exacta and trifecta payouts, and taking p5 sequences off the turn after the money has poured in (or just before they are about to load into the gate for the first leg) is the opposite of "player friendly".
You only post narratives from Twitter. You stole your name from a character on Twitter...but you're not on Twitter. You stick with that.

As I have explained many times, and the liars and frauds know this...the Pick-6 Takeout was reduced to 15%, from 25%, on non-carryover days. This is what happened. Takeout was not raised, it was lowered under some ( which in this case is most ) conditions. These are the facts. What you posted is a complete misrepresentation of the truth, and despite your claims, you got it ( like your name here ) from Twitter.
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Old 12-06-2023, 12:45 PM   #21
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Old 12-06-2023, 01:20 PM   #22
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Old 12-06-2023, 01:57 PM   #23
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This is really bad and inaccurate. It’s also nonsensical. I get that it’s a bad look, but suggesting they get almost the entire takeout back is sheer lunacy. Decisions can’t be made just because too many people are caught up in irrational conspiracy theories.


Rational discussion can only be had if the arguments on both sides are sane and rational. Suggesting an entity can somehow make money when any profit margin is ceded is not rational…nor is it well thought out.


Before I get inaccurately accused of anything here, I’m not offering a defense of this relationship, or even an opinion either way, as that would be obviously inappropriate, I’m just trying to head off craziness in an attempt to somehow “discuss” this.

Bad, inaccurate and nonsense. Why? I found last night that Nyra has an ownership stake in a caw or maybe multiple caws. We don't know, because it is a big secret, that somehow Andy Beyer and Steve Crist know about.


My expectation would be that your response would be nothing, because you aren't involved in the decision, or a flat out denial, which would mean they are wrong in their facts presented. But no your response is you cannot defend that relationship, but I am spreading disinformation or misinformation (analogous terms one of which would fit the definition of what you are accusing me of doing).



You then go on to offer this.

"Rational discussion can only be had if the arguments on both sides are sane and rational. Suggesting an entity can somehow make money when any profit margin is ceded is not rational…nor is it well thought out:"


Well first off the lack of transparency tells me that the relationship makes NYRA look really, really bad. Otherwise there would not be a lack of transparency. So I am going to obviously assume the worst. Then I have to figure out why would their be a partnership at all between any Caw team and Nyra. Nyra has a responsibility to shall I say treat all of its patrons justly (which they failed at badly even before this little nugget came out) and this little relationship at the very least jeopardizes their ability to do so. As long as this relationship exists there will always be some attention payed to the ability of their "betting partners" to make make money and actually maximize profits. Any attention to this may go against treating the rest of the public correctly or even treating the horsemen correctly. The horsemen are the last of my concern, but if I owned horses and I found out that his was going on, I would sell every horse and be out the door ver quickly, because I would feel very slighted.


Which brings me to another point, what is in it or the Caw to have a partnership with the Nyra or Stronach? At the minimum, it secures their future. Maybe they are willing to give up x percent of their profits to have a seat at the table (if you will). Or as I implied in my previous post, maybe it is a relationship that the racing industry pursued so that they protect themselves as they continually mistreat customers and these mistreated customers exit the building. In my view racing has given up on the recreational bettor. Their poor policy and lack of willingness to reverse that poor policy has essentially driven any rational gambler away from this game. It also makes it impossible for them to reach and introduce the game to a new breed of gambler that the world is currently full of. So if they have zero faith that the betting public will ever turn back to racing and refuse to take the steps needed to gain these potential new customers, then their actions of partnering with the caw tell me they are diversifying. Slot revenues ("business arrangements), sucker revenues ("entertainment"), caw revenues and of course in the case of NYRA, government subsidies. Recreation horse player be damned.



Which brings me to my last point. The caw is printing money without any partnership with NYRA. The fact that they have entered partnership, tells me that they are getting a big benefit from that partnership. I believe it has to be a lot more than a seat at the table (which imo they had to begin with). It has to be preferential pricing. So the question is how preferential? Assuming it is a partnership, which we don't know because it is a secret, then by providing their partners a full takeout rebate or close to it might be in the best interest of NYRA. Since we don't know the terms of the partnership, we cannot know. So to call me a conspiracy theorist or irrational on this subject is a bit of a stretch imo.



To your credit you are not trying to defend the indefensible.

Last edited by Poindexter; 12-06-2023 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 12-06-2023, 03:53 PM   #24
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....

Meanwhile Andy Beyer's big beef is the Rainbow Six (yawn), just don't bet it......

I doubt Andy is putting much money into Rainbow Six bets other than on mandatory payout days.



He has long been an advocate for the "regular" players and he realizes that jackpot bets have the highest effective takeout rate of any bet offered at the track. I applaud his consistent and persistent ridicule of such bets.
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Old 12-06-2023, 03:56 PM   #25
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Red face babble/rant

The 'partnership' stuff is still a little fuzzy to me.

Here's common sense to me - CAWs churning tons of money. That money is helping the track organizations.
- That alone is enough to read between the lines and see incentives and be apprehensive.... etc...
- Then in addition it's only natural that some parties and individuals who are players on the track (whether it's the organization itself or just 'big players') are going to naturally cross over into both interests.
You are a trainer or owner or jockey and you aren't supposed to be betting against self. Beyond that rule (I suppose it is written, this isn't my competence), nobody is hassling an Owner who wants to single his horse in the Pick6 or whatever wagers... Outside of some rulebook or whatever it's pretty much seemingly and hopefully understood by all; Part of the Game.

of course there's the unwritten rule of being a professional about it. Don't ever piss around on social media about wagering and/or don't ever put the Integrity of the Game in harm. Don't be on viral social media post proclaiming yourself the 'Juice Mannnn' either, but that's another story.

But I've never thought it to be some outlandish thing if an owner bet on his horses from time to time.
Owners and such win handicapping contests. Beginner's Luck and such etc... etc...

As far as the tracks themselves entering into a written contract as Gamblers and/or 'front men' (not talking 'rebates', I'm talking about actual funding) - I don't necessarily interpret that as what Crist or Beyer were even insinuating.

That seems to be one of the narratives and it's fuzzy as hell. Nothing surprises anymore, but I would be a little surprised to learn that.

None of it is necessary either.
Once the action is accepted. Once CAW technology is allowed to participate and there's a concentration of money and power, you don't need contracts and rules in some document in front of your face to clearly see imbalances and potential incentives.

If a few trainers win most of the Grade 1s and they have the top jocks earning those purses, you don't have to have a scandal to be able to see imbalances and potential incentives.

There's a fuzzy narrative about some literal conspiracy blowing up Twitter at the moment, and people are claiming that the Symposium somehow 'shook them up'... but things work a certain way, and you shouldn't require a bunch of rules in writing from the media and authorities to be able to see something for what it is.

Old news.
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Old 12-06-2023, 04:06 PM   #26
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Before I get inaccurately accused of anything here, I’m not offering a defense of this relationship, or even an opinion either way, as that would be obviously inappropriate, I’m just trying to head off craziness in an attempt to somehow “discuss” this.
Quote:
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It's actually 100% accurate despite what your Twitter masters tell you.

Uh, you don't get to have a legitimate "opinion" - you are the problem



And talk about "sheer lunacy"... that is the {person} from the entity which is still clinging to dollar breakage in a modern world where everybody else is debating penny breakage from a point of nickel- or dime-breakage, trying to defend his mixed-up organization against another pointing out the error in NYRA having always been for the player

To "discuss" this with somebody of your ilk is the sheer lunacy...

For as most others know, you cannot be any part of any solution until you cease to be the problem.


Put differently, you are the craziness in this scenario.
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Old 12-06-2023, 04:28 PM   #27
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I doubt Andy is putting much money into Rainbow Six bets other than on mandatory payout days.



He has long been an advocate for the "regular" players and he realizes that jackpot bets have the highest effective takeout rate of any bet offered at the track. I applaud his consistent and persistent ridicule of such bets.
Obviously he has never bet the pool in his life (other than possibly in a mandatory payout situation). Imo there are far bigger problems and more substantial reasons this sport is going down the drain. I saw him live years ago with Ron Nicoletti (spelling ?) at Gulfstream as a guest handicapper when asked about the jackpot pick 6, he told the audience to basically put their money in their pocket and save it for the pick 5 starting in the next race. It was classic. But racing can eliminate the Jackpot bet tomorrow at every track and while it will be beneficial to players as a whole it will not do anything to reverse this downward stream the industry is on. There is only one way to do that (eliminate rebates and bring takeout down to proper competitive levels-8% wps-10% exacta, double-12% on all other exotics-it used to be 15% on others but the longer they wait the lower the numbers have to go). They are supposed to be the "experts" and nobody states the obvious including Pat Cummings. I hate when experts say there is no solution. There is a very simple solution. These folks can jack each other off at these symposiums for the next 50 years but it not going to change anything until they take the one action that can turn this sport around.

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Old 12-06-2023, 05:05 PM   #28
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Uh, you don't get to have a legitimate "opinion" - you are the problem
Hold on - this is way beyond the realm of rational discussion and transforms a business issue to a personal attack on an employee.

Andy does not need to answer for every NYRA fault; if that were the case, there are many employees of Purdue Pharma who have much more to disclose than anyone on this forum.

The fact that Andy engages here and on other social media platforms should not be chastised. Instead, make the conversation constructive - Andy is listening and working with the community even if he cannot affect change.

If you disagree with me, let me know any other conduit that you have to engage with Dave O'Rourke and the NYRA team.
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Old 12-06-2023, 05:08 PM   #29
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Old 12-06-2023, 05:59 PM   #30
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Uh, you don't get to have a legitimate "opinion" - you are the problem



And talk about "sheer lunacy"... that is the {person} from the entity which is still clinging to dollar breakage in a modern world where everybody else is debating penny breakage from a point of nickel- or dime-breakage, trying to defend his mixed-up organization against another pointing out the error in NYRA having always been for the player

To "discuss" this with somebody of your ilk is the sheer lunacy...

For as most others know, you cannot be any part of any solution until you cease to be the problem.


Put differently, you are the craziness in this scenario.
Hilarious.

Imagine thinking the guy whose job it is to handicap races and go on TV and talk about them is THE PROBLEM when it comes to CAW teams and their relationships with host tracks.
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