Tax Reform

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by FantasticDan

Watch it. Seems like you have five minutes to spare.

I'm too busy making up and planting fake news about Democrats. Somebody has to do it.

Then we can compare the Obamacare process (did that have zero hearings and expert testimonies too?) to this bill..

The real ObamaCare hearings took place behind closed doors in Dem offices and conference rooms. The tame "experts" were the ones that testified that the average family would save $2500 a year, that if you liked your doctor..., and similar fairy tales.

It's all kabuki theater on both sides. Only the actors change from term to term.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by mostpost

They pay 35% according to the Tax Foundation. But they are probably a bunch of lying liberals.

Also according to the Tax Foundation, that same richest 1% had an average Annual Gross Income (AGI) of $1,138,992. The bottom 50% had an average Annual Gross Income (AGI) of $14,065.

That means the rich guy made 81 times what the poor guy made. However he only paid 12 times as much in Federal income tax.

And we are supposed to feel sorry for these guys?

In 2016, a single person with no dependents earning $14,065 would have paid $311 in tax. In 2017 under either the house or senate plan they would pay zero.

If your statement above is correct the average rich guy making $1,138,992 would have paid $3,732 in tax. (12 X $311) Of course the above statement is complete nonsense. It would even be nonsense if you stated that the rich guy only paid 81 times more than the poor guy or $25,191.

[AndyC]

In this article is a breakdown of taxes paid by income levels for 2014. Not exactly supporting the claims made above.

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-la...a-2016-update/

[FantasticDan]

YouTube

[porchy44]

Originally Posted by FantasticDan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNpZpmxO8Gw

GOD OF DAY AND GOD OF DARKNESS*(HYMN)

Still the nations curse the darkness,
still the rich oppress the poor;
still the earth is bruised and broken
by the ones who still want more.
Come and wake us from our sleeping,
so our hearts cannot ignore,
all your people lost and broken,
all your children at our door.

[porchy44]

Another thing, democrats and republicans are STEALING from future generations by growing the deficit. How they can sit there with a straight face and say, '"The economic growth will offset the deficit the tax cuts create".

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by porchy44

Another thing, democrats and republicans are STEALING from future generations by growing the deficit. How they can sit there with a straight face and say, '"The economic growth will offset the deficit the tax cuts create".

How can anybody sit there with a straight face and say that tax cuts are the problem? Could it be that spending is the problem?

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Could it be that spending is the problem?

No, that's not it. Steny Hoyer, Number 2 Democrat in the House when Pelosi was speaker, said:

Does the country have a spending problem? The country has a paying-for problem. We haven't paid for what we bought.

[jocko699]

Originally Posted by FantasticDan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNpZpmxO8Gw

Dan,

I saw this on youtube and thought it may have been you

YouTube

[FantasticDan]

Originally Posted by jocko699

Dan,

I saw this on youtube and thought it may have been you

I WISH it was me. Loved the Muppet Show as a kid and ManaMana was the best

[jocko699]

Originally Posted by FantasticDan

I WISH it was me. Loved the Muppet Show as a kid and ManaMana was the best

The best!

[kingfin66]

Originally Posted by AndyC

How can anybody sit there with a straight face and say that tax cuts are the problem? Could it be that spending is the problem?

But why have tax cuts without spending cuts? We are just adding another $1.5 trillion to the budget? Does anybody even care anymore?

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by kingfin66

But why have tax cuts without spending cuts? We are just adding another $1.5 trillion to the budget? Does anybody even care anymore?

They claim to care, but they just don't get it. There are Kool Aid drinkers on both sides of the aisle. Those on the left believe that the rich aren't paying their "fair share", and that if they did, we could fund an ever-increasing welfare state without more deficits.

Those on the right believe that if we cut tax rates, the increased consumer spending and business investment will generate sufficient increases in tax revenue to eliminate deficits. But even if tax revenues increased, spending is growing much faster.

Both sides are so full of crap that the whites of their eyes have turned brown. The alternatives are to cut spending or to continue to watch this country slide down the slippery slope into a Euro "socialist democracy". I see no one, even in the leadership on the right (including Trump), that understands this. And I have no hope that they will.

[classhandicapper]

I'm in favor of tax reform that simplifies the tax code, but I'm not in favor tax cuts unless they are accompanied by equal spending cuts.

There's some evidence we need corporate tax cuts because companies have been leaving the US, doing inversions just to avoid taxes, and also have loads of cash overseas they don't want to bring home because it would trigger another round of taxes. But it also sort of feels like we are in a race to the bottom on taxes. If we lower corporate taxes to get more competitive, what's to stop our competitors from doing the same thing. Then we are right back in the same relative position except both countries are running bigger deficits.

I'm also in the middle on this whole rich vs. poor thing.

The rich definitely pay the vast majority of the taxes and that percentage has been growing. However, part of that is because they are earning an ever larger percentage of the income and wealth creation.

There are 2 political spins to the math.

Liberals like to point out that tax cuts generate a lot more income for the rich, but fail to acknowledge the basic math that a small percentage of a much bigger number is a bigger number.

Conservatives like to point out the correct math, but fail to acknowledge that the middle class was gutted by all the free trade deals and "owners" have been getting richer and richer at their expense. That's why they are paying a larger percentage of the taxes.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I'm in favor of tax reform that simplifies the tax code, but I'm not in favor tax cuts unless they are accompanied by equal spending cuts.

We don't need spending cuts just a spending freeze. Tax cuts do create more tax revenue through economic growth.

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

There's some evidence we need corporate tax cuts because companies have been leaving the US, doing inversions just to avoid taxes, and also have loads of cash overseas they don't want to bring home because it would trigger another round of taxes. But it also sort of feels like we are in a race to the bottom on taxes. If we lower corporate taxes to get more competitive, what's to stop our competitors from doing the same thing. Then we are right back in the same relative position except both countries are running bigger deficits..........

There is just so much juice in the lemon. Our competitors could squeeze more but I doubt that would be enough taxes left to cut to make a difference.

I would argue that your assumption that corporate taxes not collected would increase the deficit is wrong.

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

The rich definitely pay the vast majority of the taxes and that percentage has been growing. However, part of that is because they are earning an ever larger percentage of the income and wealth creation.

There are 2 political spins to the math.

Liberals like to point out that tax cuts generate a lot more income for the rich, but fail to acknowledge the basic math that a small percentage of a much bigger number is a bigger number.

Conservatives like to point out the correct math, but fail to acknowledge that the middle class was gutted by all the free trade deals and "owners" have been getting richer and richer at their expense. That's why they are paying a larger percentage of the taxes.

Why is wealth creation always described as a zero sum game? If people are creating wealth and making money it doesn't mean that they are doing it at the expense of someone else creating wealth and making money.