Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 06-30-2018, 05:55 PM   #61
Fager Fan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubercapper View Post
Do you know Dr. Bramlage personally?

Can you cite a quote from him on the topic of whether horses feel pain and discomfort following IV Lasix?

Since I live in Lexington and see Dr. Bramlage quite a bit I will ask him directly whether horses feel the pain and discomfort of IV Lasix and I will report his response on this thread whether it agrees with my previously stated position or not.
Yes, I do.

He’s on the record as saying he thinks it’s most humane for the horse to be treated with race day Lasix.

Regarding pain, do you really think hundreds of horses are experiencing pain and no trainer or vet has noticed? You really think that if they were experiencing pain that it wouldn’t be negatively affecting their racing?
Fager Fan is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2018, 09:33 PM   #62
Spalding No!
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan View Post
[Dr. Bramlage]’s on the record as saying he thinks it’s most humane for the horse to be treated with race day Lasix.
I don't think Dr. Bramlage specified that race day Lasix was the most humane treatment for bleeders. In fact, he posited that it was likely that Lasix could be used in a fashion that did not require raceday administration but would still have a positive effect on bleeding.

Bramlage also is on record declaring Lasix as a performance enhancer.

Furthermore, he has stated that pro-Lasix supporters are in the wrong because they aren't considering the bad publicity and other media and sponsorship considerations that it negatively effects.
Spalding No! is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2018, 09:43 PM   #63
Fager Fan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No! View Post
I don't think Dr. Bramlage specified that race day Lasix was the most humane treatment for bleeders. In fact, he posited that it was likely that Lasix could be used in a fashion that did not require raceday administration but would still have a positive effect on bleeding.

Bramlage also is on record declaring Lasix as a performance enhancer.

Furthermore, he has stated that pro-Lasix supporters are in the wrong because they aren't considering the bad publicity and other media and sponsorship considerations that it negatively effects.
Negative publicity is far different than what is most humane.

Race day, non race day, same thing. It’s still in the horse’s system and would have to be declared.

And yes, he does state it is a performance enhancer, but then anything that reduces blood pressure would also be a performance enhancer like withdrawing food and water for an extended period of time.
Fager Fan is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-01-2018, 09:13 AM   #64
biggestal99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No! View Post
I don't think Dr. Bramlage specified that race day Lasix was the most humane treatment for bleeders. In fact, he posited that it was likely that Lasix could be used in a fashion that did not require raceday administration but would still have a positive effect on bleeding.

Bramlage also is on record declaring Lasix as a performance enhancer.

Furthermore, he has stated that pro-Lasix supporters are in the wrong because they aren't considering the bad publicity and other media and sponsorship considerations that it negatively effects.
Yes but what % of horses need it vs horses that use it becuase it is a performance enhancer and need to keep up with the jones.

Not all horses need race day lasix, they are in the vast minority.

Allan
biggestal99 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-01-2018, 09:51 AM   #65
Fager Fan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggestal99 View Post
Yes but what % of horses need it vs horses that use it becuase it is a performance enhancer and need to keep up with the jones.

Not all horses need race day lasix, they are in the vast minority.

Allan
The 50% or so who give for breezes and then scope after every work, you think they’re going for enhancing the performance of their works?

Or in Europe, where they give for works, just not race day?

The bad bleeders that you note as s vast minority probably bleed through Lasix anyway.

If it’s not a masking agent, which it’s not, and it’s the most humane way to treat a horse, why is it a big deal? Why do we keep talking about it? Of the guys we think are cheating, do we think Lasix is what they’re cheating with?
Fager Fan is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-01-2018, 10:54 AM   #66
cj
@TimeformUSfigs
 
cj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan View Post
The 50% or so who give for breezes and then scope after every work, you think they’re going for enhancing the performance of their works?

Or in Europe, where they give for works, just not race day?

The bad bleeders that you note as s vast minority probably bleed through Lasix anyway.

If it’s not a masking agent, which it’s not, and it’s the most humane way to treat a horse, why is it a big deal? Why do we keep talking about it? Of the guys we think are cheating, do we think Lasix is what they’re cheating with?

Good luck convincing the public that injecting 95% of the participants is humane. That will really help the sport grow.
cj is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-01-2018, 04:09 PM   #67
ubercapper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan View Post
Yes, I do.

He’s on the record as saying he thinks it’s most humane for the horse to be treated with race day Lasix.

Regarding pain, do you really think hundreds of horses are experiencing pain and no trainer or vet has noticed? You really think that if they were experiencing pain that it wouldn’t be negatively affecting their racing?

At others have stated, whether IV Lasix is humane for horses who have experienced EIPH is totally different than my point IV Lasix is not humane if given prophylactically to horses who have not experience EIPH.



My opinion is based on the likely discomfort or pain horses feel following administration if the action is similar to what I felt and other people feel after getting IV Lasix.



Your opinion appears to be based on a question never asked to Dr. Bramlage, or anyone else.

As to whether Lasix negatively affects their ability to race - Lasix is given hours before a race, then they urinate profusely, so any pain and discomfort is gone long before they race. I know I felt fine after an hour or so and if horse's are similarly predisposed it's long forgotten by the time they go to the paddock.

Regarding trainers or vets noticing any discomfort - Unless the vet or trainer sticks around for the next hour immediately after IV Lasix administration (if the effect is the same as in humans), they would not notice any pain or discomfort. So, I really do think there are few people noticing and those that are probably are grooms who have no reason to suspect the horse is uncomfortable because all they notice is the gallons upon gallons of urine.

I hope you never have to get IV Lasix. I am 100% confident if you did you would understand it is not humane to give it to horses prophylactically.
ubercapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-01-2018, 04:10 PM   #68
ubercapper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj View Post
Good luck convincing the public that injecting 95% of the participants is humane. That will really help the sport grow.

This.
ubercapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-01-2018, 04:59 PM   #69
Tom
The Voice of Reason!
 
Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggestal99 View Post
Yes but what % of horses need it vs horses that use it becuase it is a performance enhancer and need to keep up with the jones.

Not all horses need race day lasix, they are in the vast minority.

Allan
They use lasix to stop the OWNER's bleeding, not the horse's.
__________________
Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
Tom is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-01-2018, 06:54 PM   #70
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post
They use lasix to stop the OWNER's bleeding, not the horse's.
Is there a medication to stop the HORSEPLAYER'S bleeding?
__________________
Live to play another day.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-01-2018, 06:59 PM   #71
Tom
The Voice of Reason!
 
Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
Is there a medication to stop the HORSEPLAYER'S bleeding?
Poker.
__________________
Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
Tom is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-01-2018, 07:09 PM   #72
jay68802
Registered User
 
jay68802's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 15,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
Is there a medication to stop the HORSEPLAYER'S bleeding?
jay68802 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-01-2018, 08:24 PM   #73
outofthebox
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubercapper View Post
At others have stated, whether IV Lasix is humane for horses who have experienced EIPH is totally different than my point IV Lasix is not humane if given prophylactically to horses who have not experience EIPH.



My opinion is based on the likely discomfort or pain horses feel following administration if the action is similar to what I felt and other people feel after getting IV Lasix.



Your opinion appears to be based on a question never asked to Dr. Bramlage, or anyone else.

As to whether Lasix negatively affects their ability to race - Lasix is given hours before a race, then they urinate profusely, so any pain and discomfort is gone long before they race. I know I felt fine after an hour or so and if horse's are similarly predisposed it's long forgotten by the time they go to the paddock.

Regarding trainers or vets noticing any discomfort - Unless the vet or trainer sticks around for the next hour immediately after IV Lasix administration (if the effect is the same as in humans), they would not notice any pain or discomfort. So, I really do think there are few people noticing and those that are probably are grooms who have no reason to suspect the horse is uncomfortable because all they notice is the gallons upon gallons of urine.

I hope you never have to get IV Lasix. I am 100% confident if you did you would understand it is not humane to give it to horses prophylactically.
I have witnessed thousands of horses treated with lasix. It usually takes an average of 10 minutes for their first urine release. I have never noticed any of them pawing, looking back at their stomach, or showing any other sign that would make me think they were uncomfortable. I did witness one occasion when a horse dropped with a combo of lasix and Vit E and Selenium.. I am sorry you felt such pain with your dose of lasix.
outofthebox is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-02-2018, 06:52 AM   #74
biggestal99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan View Post
The 50% or so who give for breezes and then scope after every work, you think they’re going for enhancing the performance of their works?

Or in Europe, where they give for works, just not race day?

The bad bleeders that you note as s vast minority probably bleed through Lasix anyway.

If it’s not a masking agent, which it’s not, and it’s the most humane way to treat a horse, why is it a big deal? Why do we keep talking about it? Of the guys we think are cheating, do we think Lasix is what they’re cheating with?
Giving horse unnecessary medication on race day is not the way to go imho.

Our opinions differ. Viva la difference.

Allan
biggestal99 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-02-2018, 03:20 PM   #75
clocker7
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 692
In summary, lasix is no big deal. It is settled science, resisted only by rabid animal rights activists and perpetual gripers. Sure, the truth can be twisted in the media, but so what? Why give into the liars?
clocker7 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.