Well I will never place a bet at DEL again.....

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Imo, what the Delaware Park asst starter did is inexcusable.

A grown man whose chosen profession involves interacting with and gaining the trust of horses, ought to know better.

My gut reaction after watching the video? Pretty much the same as seeing a grown man punching out a woman or a child.

The 8 day suspension rubber stamped by the stewards?

Imo, equally inexcusable.



-jp

.

And yet...both Nick (the Sarge) Hines and Vic Stauffer thought that it was no big deal...when the incident was brought to their attention. So...I guess there are TWO ways of looking at that video.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by jimmyb

Pulling ears, yanking tails and whipping are not abuse?

No, they are not. Just like putting a bit in the mouth to control a horse isn't abuse.

But punching a horse repeatedly in the head/face...maybe he misses by an inch and punches the horse square in the eye and blinds it?

Far different from pulling an ear or whipping on the flank or holding a tail (have never really seen a starter that I can remember YANKING a tail)...all three of which have pretty much zero chance of doing any damage.

As opposed to repeated punches to the face and head, where one can do permanent damage to the eye, lips, teeth...I will rule out concussion although who knows...maybe he hits in just the right spot to cause a concussion...

I feel stupid just for having to type all of this. It should be obvious.

[jimmyb]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

No, they are not. Just like putting a bit in the mouth to control a horse isn't abuse.

But punching a horse repeatedly in the head/face...maybe he misses by an inch and punches the horse square in the eye and blinds it?

Far different from pulling an ear or whipping on the flank or holding a tail (have never really seen a starter that I can remember YANKING a tail)...all three of which have pretty much zero chance of doing any damage.

As opposed to repeated punches to the face and head, where one can do permanent damage to the eye, lips, teeth...I will rule out concussion although who knows...maybe he hits in just the right spot to cause a concussion...

I feel stupid just for having to type all of this. It should be obvious.

I'll pull your ears and whip your ass, then tell me how you feel. I feel stupid having to type this, it should be obvious.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by jimmyb

I'll pull your ears and whip your ass, then tell me how you feel. I feel stupid having to type this, it should be obvious.

So then you're against breaking a horse in general.

How about I put a bit in your mouth and rip it apart with my ham-handed style of riding? Right Jimmy?

[jimmyb]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

So then you're against breaking a horse in general.

How about I put a bit in your mouth and rip it apart with my ham-handed style of riding? Right Jimmy?

More playing the Devils Advocate here. Sometimes you have to hit a jackass on the head with a two by four to get it's attention.

You're free to put a bit in my mouth, but suppression of thought is unlike you.

[turfnsport]

Originally Posted by jimmyb

I'll pull your ears and whip your ass, then tell me how you feel.

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

How about I put a bit in your mouth and rip it apart with my ham-handed style of riding?

Originally Posted by jimmyb

.

You're free to put a bit in my mouth

This thread has taken an odd turn.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

And yet...both Nick (the Sarge) Hines and Vic Stauffer thought that it was no big deal...when the incident was brought to their attention. So...I guess there are TWO ways of looking at that video.

I didn't say it was no big deal.

What I did say was I thought the process of addressing the incident was handled properly.

He was immediately suspended pending a review and hearing.

That hearing was conducted before the Delaware Racing Commission, Delaware Park Stewards and a representative of the State office of animal cruelty.

Also heard at the hearing were the GM of the racetrack. As well as the owner and trainer of the horse.

IMO due process had been properly supported and I respected the decision that was made.

I also made it VERY clear that I do not condone abuse of any animal by any one at any time.

I didn't see or hear anything the Sarge said. But would be very interested to hear his take. He was a trainer on the So. Cal circuit for over 20 years.

If anyone can post what he said it would be appreciated.

[GMB@BP]

I don't want to freak people out but the discipline of these race horses has a pretty broad spectrum, this is definitely no where near the top of the spectrum from my personal witness and experience, which wasnt even that long on the track, sales and farms.

If we fired everyone for getting after horses at this level of physicality then I think there would be many jobs available.

Guy was in the wrong as he crossed the line no doubt, and the days served without pay seems appropriate.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

I don't want to freak people out but the discipline of these race horses has a pretty broad spectrum, this is definitely no where near the top of the spectrum from my personal witness and experience, which wasnt even that long on the track, sales and farms.

If we fired everyone for getting after horses at this level of physicality then I think there would be many jobs available.

Guy was in the wrong as he crossed the line no doubt, and the days served without pay seems appropriate.

There are a LOT of horse people on this board. You know, people who actually are AROUND racehorses quite a bit.

I would be shocked if any of those horse people were to say to me...yup...sometimes you have to punch these ****ers in the head 5-6 times in order to get them to pay attention.

I've been around racehorses. I've been around people who have been around racehorses. Been around people who were training some pretty unruly TBreds who had just come off the track.

Nobody would ever dream of punching a horse in the face, HARD, 5-6 times for ANY reason.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

I didn't say it was no big deal.

What I did say was I thought the process of addressing the incident was handled properly.

He was immediately suspended pending a review and hearing.

That hearing was conducted before the Delaware Racing Commission, Delaware Park Stewards and a representative of the State office of animal cruelty.

Also heard at the hearing were the GM of the racetrack. As well as the owner and trainer of the horse.

IMO due process had been properly supported and I respected the decision that was made.

I also made it VERY clear that I do not condone abuse of any animal by any one at any time.

I didn't see or hear anything the Sarge said. But would be very interested to hear his take. He was a trainer on the So. Cal circuit for over 20 years.

If anyone can post what he said it would be appreciated.

I don't know how to post what the Sarge said...but I happened to be listening to him when he said it. And what he said was that the assistant starter took an understandable approach to the horse's restlessness problem...given the "danger" element that the starting crew is faced with in the performance of their duties. But I have seen this restlessness problem many times before...without that particular human reaction. That was a shameless exhibition, IMO...and it was worse that it took place out in the open. One can only wonder what happens during the "schooling" of these horses...when the camera isn't rolling.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

There are a LOT of horse people on this board. You know, people who actually are AROUND racehorses quite a bit.

I would be shocked if any of those horse people were to say to me...yup...sometimes you have to punch these ****ers in the head 5-6 times in order to get them to pay attention.

I've been around racehorses. I've been around people who have been around racehorses. Been around people who were training some pretty unruly TBreds who had just come off the track.

Nobody would ever dream of punching a horse in the face, HARD, 5-6 times for ANY reason.

In response. Of all the people on this board who have, like myself, been around horses quite a bit. Or even longer than that.

The starting gate is an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS place.

Jockeys, assistants and horses have all DIED as a result of incidents in the starting gate.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I don't know how to post what the Sarge said...but I happened to be listening to him when he said it. And what he said was that the assistant starter took an understandable approach to the horse's restlessness problem...given the "danger" element that the starting crew is faced with in the performance of their duties. But I have seen this restlessness problem many times before...without that particular human reaction. That was a shameless exhibition, IMO...and it was worse that it took place out in the open. One can only wonder what happens during the "schooling" of these horses...when the camera isn't rolling.

The majority of racing fans agree with you.

The Commission, Stewards and Animal Cruelty person exonerated the assistant of any other sanctions except the days he missed while awaiting his hearing.

What do you make of the fact the owner and trainer of the horse have stated they didn't have a problem with the assistant's actions?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

In response. Of all the people on this board who have, like myself, been around horses quite a bit. Or even longer than that.

The starting gate is an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS place.

Jockeys, assistants and horses have all DIED as a result of incidents in the starting gate.

Has it been proven that the possibility of a life-threatening starting-gate accident LESSENS if the starting-crew member punches the restless horse a few times on the side of the head?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

The majority of racing fans agree with you.

The Commission, Stewards and Animal Cruelty person exonerated the assistant of any other sanctions except the days he missed while awaiting his hearing.

What do you make of the fact the owner and trainer of the horse have stated they didn't have a problem with the assistant's actions?

As I said before...it makes me shake my head at the thought of what other "schooling techniques" the owners and the trainers of these horses have 'no problem with'...away from the camera's prying eye. Clearly...this is no sport for the squeamish.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

There are a LOT of horse people on this board. You know, people who actually are AROUND racehorses quite a bit.

I would be shocked if any of those horse people were to say to me...yup...sometimes you have to punch these ****ers in the head 5-6 times in order to get them to pay attention.

I've been around racehorses. I've been around people who have been around racehorses. Been around people who were training some pretty unruly TBreds who had just come off the track.

Nobody would ever dream of punching a horse in the face, HARD, 5-6 times for ANY reason.

I had one guy, young farm manager at the time, maybe 20's, get kicked by this weanling maybe approaching yearling.

He didnt punch him, he kicked him in the belly/balls a few times.

He now is head of one of the larger farms in Ky. I was very young and new to the game, I thought it was rough but the other guys who were more generational just kinda took it as it is what it is.

I will say, seemed to me they were a bit rougher on the farms than on the tracks.

Though I can recall a incident similar at the Keeneland July sales (they used to have that) where a horse got real stupid walking and man, they let that horse have it when he got back to the stall.

I dont agree with any of it, just my personal experience. You can call me a liar, dont really care.