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Old 10-13-2017, 10:23 PM   #76
steveb
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Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
Ya'll may or may not realize that the Ragozin's and I assume Thorograph , have hand timed (for better or worse) for 40 years . Not sure they do it for every track, but certainly the majors.

Nothing new in smart players taking advantage of inept race timing.

Not sure exactly how much of an edge it is , especially small errors. but always nice to have accurate data, if only for principles sake.
it won't give an edge because you can be sure that the best of your oppponents will have cleaned their data too.

for the rest, it won't matter if they have accurate or inaccurate data, they will lose regardless.
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Old 10-13-2017, 11:27 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
Ya'll may or may not realize that the Ragozin's and I assume Thorograph , have hand timed (for better or worse) for 40 years . Not sure they do it for every track, but certainly the majors.

Nothing new in smart players taking advantage of inept race timing.

Not sure exactly how much of an edge it is , especially small errors. but always nice to have accurate data, if only for principles sake.

I always chuckle at the hand timing. Better sales gimmick than actual tool. At best it is good for catching egregious errors.
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Old 10-13-2017, 11:37 PM   #78
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As a former Ragozin employee, timing races was one of my jobs. Had to get run-up distances for each gate position.
They time from when the gate opens to the finish, the only difference was, they time the first gap of distance after the winner. So if there was no gap between the first three runners I would stop the watch at the fourth place runner and report that time.
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Old 10-14-2017, 02:31 AM   #79
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I always chuckle at the hand timing. Better sales gimmick than actual tool. At best it is good for catching egregious errors.
Thask was right. You are our only guy to go to bat for all. And you get conflicting BS on a regular basis. Thanks CJ. Here's one for them!

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Old 10-14-2017, 06:39 AM   #80
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I always chuckle at the hand timing. Better sales gimmick than actual tool. At best it is good for catching egregious errors.
Which is what i do at DD and Evd. I usually can tell when they are way off, and my retiming can be off a fifth or two either way, but much better than the 1 0r 2 seconds the board is showing.
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Old 10-14-2017, 12:55 PM   #81
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Class, would you mind enlightening us about how you make figures if the raw data is wrong? Of course without giving away the key to the mint. Or maybe you're timing from your own videotapes as well.
I wasn't talking about making speed figure in my case. I was talking about watching races, looking at the quality of a field, and comparing horses' trips and performances within races. When I do that, I couldn't care less what the time was. I'm practically praying the race came up faster or slower than my assessment of the field so when the horses come back everyone else is going the other way.

A better example might be the way Thorograph makes figures primarily off the horses instead of the times. It's not that they don't look at the times, but they will adjust figures to the horses when they don't make sense based on the time.

Now I'm not saying these are better ways of doing it. I'm just saying there are ways of trying to get around the inaccuracies of timed races that work quite well and take you away from the consensus sometimes.
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Old 10-14-2017, 01:26 PM   #82
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it won't give an edge because you can be sure that the best of your oppponents will have cleaned their data too.

for the rest, it won't matter if they have accurate or inaccurate data, they will lose regardless.
I'm not sure I'm buying this.

I know the big figure makers catch many of the larger timing errors when a time makes no sense and/or it's a major stake, but there are WAY too many races to get them all. Some of the mistakes are only 1/5 or 2/5.

If there is someone out there that has more accurate times at his home track, he has some kind of advantage. Once everyone has figures based off those more accurate times, he will lose it.
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Old 10-14-2017, 01:49 PM   #83
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Also...an "information asymmetry" isn't the same as an exploitative situation brought about by management incompetence. Because incompetence knows no bounds...even if I can exploit the erroneous timing of these races...I must live with the uneasy feeling that I too could, in turn, be exploited by someone else...in some other way.
You are putting a nefarious spin on it.

I think the problem is money.

The industry apparently does not have the free cash required to invest in technology that might improve the overall quality of the timing very marginally and give us better lengths behind data at the fractional calls too.

Trakus was actually an attempt to do that because it comes with other benefits like the chicklets, ground loss etc..

It's just a fact that Trakus makes some mistakes and is not consistent in it's ground loss measurements from track to track. The technology needs some work.

Given that reality, there was nothing nefarious about the change or with an individual either timing races on their own or watching races trying to find errors in the running lines.
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Old 10-14-2017, 01:59 PM   #84
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Thanks Tom.

Here is the Out of the Gate segment, starts around 23 minute mark.

http://video.drf.com/detail/videos/o...ge-cup-edition
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Old 10-14-2017, 02:43 PM   #85
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You are putting a nefarious spin on it.

I think the problem is money.

The industry apparently does not have the free cash required to invest in technology that might improve the overall quality of the timing very marginally and give us better lengths behind data at the fractional calls too.

Trakus was actually an attempt to do that because it comes with other benefits like the chicklets, ground loss etc..

It's just a fact that Trakus makes some mistakes and is not consistent in it's ground loss measurements from track to track. The technology needs some work.

Given that reality, there was nothing nefarious about the change or with an individual either timing races on their own or watching races trying to find errors in the running lines.
I didn't say "nefarious"...I said INCOMPETENT. An industry that can't manage to properly time its races is INCOMPETENT. And if they can't handle a rudimentary task such as that...how can they be entrusted to handle something complex...like the drug issue that plagues the sport?
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Old 10-14-2017, 06:54 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
I'm not sure I'm buying this.

I know the big figure makers catch many of the larger timing errors when a time makes no sense and/or it's a major stake, but there are WAY too many races to get them all. Some of the mistakes are only 1/5 or 2/5.

If there is someone out there that has more accurate times at his home track, he has some kind of advantage. Once everyone has figures based off those more accurate times, he will lose it.
i am talking syndicates basically and clean data is a must for them.
every race everywhere will be checked for accuracy.

there is one guy in australia that has a public face on sky racing channel, but he also provides cleaned data for every track that has pari mutuel betting, to various groups.
and there is a zillion of them(tracks) and yes, they time them ALL.
it is, after all, a business, and he employs a good few people.
just because you don't think something can happen, does not mean it doesn't.
i was part of one mob, that had no less than 40 odd people based in manila doing every race, every where(various countries).
all trained to do it exactly the same.
not just checking times, but every conceivable thing that happened during the race.
i would be positive, some people somewhere, are doing the same for your tracks in the states.

i had been in that world for a long time, but even the jurisdictions that i would have done for my self, the same applied, except it was done in house.
and one of the biggest errors frequently encountered was that the time was actually correct, but the distances were a long way out.

so your little bloke might have the accurate times that average joe doesn't have, but it's not average joe that he needs to overcome.
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:58 PM   #87
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Not 1 race today at Santa Anita the Trakus information was provided.

Not sure if this thread and other commotion online is the reason but if so congrats on now even LESS information being provided to the public.

If they are just holding back while things get fixed then I guess its a good thing. Lets see.

Last edited by dasch; 10-14-2017 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 10-14-2017, 08:12 PM   #88
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Not 1 race today at Santa Anita the Trakus information was provided.

Not sure if this thread and other commotion online is the reason but if so congrats on now even LESS information being provided to the public.

If they are just holding back while things get fixed then I guess its a good thing. Lets see.
The charts have all the data except for one race as of now, race 6.

http://www.santaanita.com/horse-raci...active/trakus/
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Old 10-14-2017, 08:15 PM   #89
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The charts have all the data except for one race as of now, race 6.

http://www.santaanita.com/horse-raci...active/trakus/
Thats yesterday, there is nothing for todays card
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Old 10-14-2017, 08:27 PM   #90
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Thats yesterday, there is nothing for todays card
Ah, I see now, thanks. I'm not going to feel bad if it isn't getting posted. There are big problems with it. Most days have been missing large numbers of races. It isn't my fault.
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