Curlin

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by gIracing

We talk about how many horses get sent to stud and when they don't we don't say jack. that move costs Him a good 15 million in revenue, because for 1 race, that was an entire seasion he wasn't in the shed.

Aren’t we missing something in this discussion about ‘Zapper and Curlin’s stud careers? I believe that the focus is too much on the money that can be made in stud fees and I am not discounting that option. However most of the people at this level is very rich and that is not say that making more money is meaningless to them, but to say winning trophies has a value to them that money that money cannot buy.

Winning the Kentucky Derby or the Prix De L Arc De Triomphe might be the two most valuable trophies in horseracing and given an opportunity to win one or both it might be worth a year of stud fees.

Also, if the concern is that the potentially valuable stud might get injured on the track and never make it to shed row, one should look at both Alydar and Secretariat. Both had success on the track and both made it to the breeding shed, but both of their stud careers were cut short by their untimely deaths.

[NYPlayer]

Originally Posted by ghostyapper

Nothing to prove? At the time of the belmont he had as many loses as wins on the year. Doesn't sound like a horse with "nothing to prove"



As aburd as this sounds judging by how curlin trounced him in the classic, what makes it even more absurd is the fact that the "horse of october" won more races in the spring and earned more money than street sense.

Street Sense had nothing to prove in the Belmont. He had already made history by being the first Juvy winner to also win the Derby. I will say that the decsion not to run him in the Blemont was not popular with the public, and that, I think turned off a lot people, especially some voters in the awards in January.

Originally Posted by ghostyapper

....Your description of SS was he "wins the big ones." Now after Curlin trounces SS in the biggest one of them all, you want to ignore the results so you can continue to hold your incorrect pre-race opinions. Some people never (or refuse) to learn.

There can't be any meaningful commentary about the BC without proper regard for the track conditions. The track was not just an ordinary wet track. It had been sloppy from last Wednesday with steady rain occuring on Thursday, Friday, and most of Saturday. I believe the track was compromised. Too many horses didn't run well that should have finished better. I think the most siginficant off performance came from Lawyer Ron, who wound up next to last in the Classic. LR was the best older horse this year. No observer familiar with these horses' records can rationally conclude that Curlin is 16 lengths better than Lawyer Run, or that Hard Spun is 12 lengths better.

[gIracing]

very good point. here is my response:

Let's not also forget that while these people are well...loaded. Let's look at what they do for a living


the majority of them own STUD FARMS

Stud Farms are going to do what is going to help their business, which is why it's a prudent business decision

Frank Stronach owns one of the most successful stud farms in america. So when he gets a stallion prospect that can make him upwards of 50 million dollars over the next 3 years, from one stud alone, what is he supposed to do? how does he look if he gets injuried and pulls a George Washington?

and with all that said, he brought him BACK!


Same wtih Darley, Coolmore, WinStar, etc

No, what gets me more than that are different situtations. Take Curlin's situtation. Every last one of his owners, execpt the origional ones, who still own 20%, are loaded. Loaded to the brim. None of them own any stud farm. Ovboiusly none of them have any idea when it comes to the ecnomics of breeding.

If you have a horse where you can send to stud and still keep a share of him, you have a 15 year ATM machine if he turns out to be anywhere near successful. but still.


As long as it's setup the way it is, with the tail waging the dog, it's going to be like this. the only way you can regulate it is to do what they do in germany and regulate the number of mares a stallion can recieve, or even better, regulate the the conditions under which a horse can stand at stud (i.e at least 5-6 years of age, ran at least 15-20 times, at least 2 grade 1 wins). That would make horse racing a hell of alot more interesting, but will never happen. I would push for something like that to happen.

Also, regulate the price of what a stud can stand for in his first 4 years. I.E no more than 50k.. but then some people would get fire sales on some horses that are successul which would be good..and bad

I actually made a post on another forum.. if you look at it, take out Fu Peg, who is one of the most fasionabliy bred stallions ever, Sunday Silence and Unbridled, and the Kentucky Derby itself, not the TC but just that one race, is worthless when it comes to stallion prices. Giacomo is standing for 12k, look at the prices for the studs now.. Silver Charm, Charasmatic, Go For gin, Monarchos, Real Quiet, going back father Lil E Tee, Sea Hero.. it's actualy laughable. You are better off winning the blue grass. the Champainge stakes is more important for breeders than the kentucky Derby which is saying alot.

The thing about studs is there is no guarantee on how many years you get.


Somehow, someway, we have to have the dog waging the tail again.

[gIracing]

Street Sense had nothing to prove in the Belmont. He had already made history by being the first Juvy winner to also win the Derby. I will say that the decsion not to run him in the Blemont was not popular with the public, and that, I think turned off a lot people, especially some voters in the awards in January.

I think what pissed alot of people off was not him not running, but since when does every race has to be 1) a Classic race or 2) a prep for a classic race. Whatever happened to just good ole fasioned "i want to kick this horses ass". I have no, NO respect for a guy who trains a horse, taht passes him in the stertch, finds enough grit to fight back, look him dead in the eye and pass hi m, and then whimps out on the part 3 becasue tehre is "no point".

America wanted to see Curlin/Hard spun (why i don't know)/ Street Sense/ Rags to Riches, and he didn't give it to america because there is "no point". Races is how you make you rliving, it's your bread and butter. that's the point. even without him it was the best of the triple crown races, just imagine if SS was IN it.

There can't be any meaningful commentary about the BC without proper regard for the track conditions. The track was not just an ordinary wet track. It had been sloppy from last Wednesday with steady rain occuring on Thursday, Friday, and most of Saturday. I believe the track was compromised. Too many horses didn't run well that should have finished better. I think the most siginficant off performance came from Lawyer Ron, who wound up next to last in the Classic. LR was the best older horse this year. No observer familiar with these horses' records can rationally conclude that Curlin is 16 lengths better than Lawyer Run, or that Hard Spun is 12 lengths better.

actually It's EXACtLY what I thought would happen. I thought AGS would run a little better than he did but I have been screaming since Kentucky Derby day that SS has not beaten a Grade 1 calibur horse outside of Churchill Downs. He is a Churchill Downs monster, that outside of it, has to noise out wins against the likes of CP West and Grasshopper, and last year got whipped by the same horese he was trouncing in the Derby (circular Quay, Great hunter, Nobiz). All of his bEST races came on ONE track. I don't know what it WAS about churcill but he loves it. he isn't lcose to the same horse outside of churchill downs. His dad took a liking to churchill downs winning th eStephen F. Foster in 1:46 and change and doing it driving home going away.

[NYPlayer]

[QUOTE=gIracing]


actually It's EXACtLY what I thought would happen. I thought AGS would run a little better than he did but I have been screaming since Kentucky Derby day that SS has not beaten a Grade 1 calibur horse outside of Churchill Downs. He is a Churchill Downs monster, that outside of it, has to noise out wins against the likes of CP West and Grasshopper...QUOTE]


Oh, I forgot, your the world's greatest genius and knew that Lawyer Ron would finished next to last. What was I thinking?

Street Sense beat AGS in Tampa. AGS beat Curlin and Hard Spun in the Haskell (Gr1.), so by your logic you have to accept the fact that Street Sense beat a legitimate grade 1 horse outside of Churchill Downs.

Isn't that true, Genuius?

[Semipro]

Originally Posted by Tom

No offense at all - just having some fun. I'm not that serious to be offended by horse talk.

Sometimes, it's hard to tell from just words and no presonal contact - believe me, I took this whole thread very lightly.

Me too

[ghostyapper]

Originally Posted by NYPlayer

Street Sense had nothing to prove in the Belmont. He had already made history by being the first Juvy winner to also win the Derby. I will say that the decsion not to run him in the Blemont was not popular with the public, and that, I think turned off a lot people, especially some voters in the awards in January.

Yes street sense became the first horse to win the bc juvy and derby but what exactly does that mean? Somehow I don't see the connection between that accomplishment and becoming a horse with "nothing left to prove" half way into his 3yo season. Up untill the Belmont he hadn't even proven he was the best 3yo so saying he had nothing to prove is laughable.

Originally Posted by NYPlayer

There can't be any meaningful commentary about the BC without proper regard for the track conditions. The track was not just an ordinary wet track. It had been sloppy from last Wednesday with steady rain occuring on Thursday, Friday, and most of Saturday. I believe the track was compromised. Too many horses didn't run well that should have finished better. I think the most siginficant off performance came from Lawyer Ron, who wound up next to last in the Classic. LR was the best older horse this year. No observer familiar with these horses' records can rationally conclude that Curlin is 16 lengths better than Lawyer Run, or that Hard Spun is 12 lengths better.

Here we go with the excuses again. Lawyer Ron and AGS not showing up does not erase street senses defeat no matter how much you want it to. Lawyer Ron and AGS were not in contention around the far turn. This is a sign that they either didn't show up or didn't like the track. There were 3 clear contenders around the turn that were all running their race and you know who they were. I would venture to say 99% of the street senseless gang thought the horse was a lock for a victory around the turn. He was taking to the track and making his run. Curlin and Hard Spun proved to be better in the stretch. Are they 10-15 lengths better than street sense? No. Street Sense probably "threw in the towel" when he realized he was 3rd best. He clearly does not have the heart of hard spun nor the talent of Curlin. Conclusion? 3rd best

In the derby, both street sense and hard spun finished 5 or more lengths ahead of Curlin. Does that mean the results were skewed because they obviously are not 5 lengths better than Curlin? See how weak your arguments are when we use them on your love child?

[gIracing]

i can't take you seriously, becuase had SS won, all would have been well. In your own logic, the only logical thing TO happen is SS winning by 5 lengths. Now becuase he lost, it was a bad race. Maybe, just maybe, he wasn't that good.

Oh, I forgot, your the world's greatest genius and knew that Lawyer Ron would finished next to last. What was I thinking?

this is what I get a kick out of. when people take things WAAAY to personal

IMHO, if this were an allowence race, lawyer ron would have been not been a viable choice. He has in 3 years of racing, not beaten 1 horse that has went on to win a grade 1 at a classic distance, he has not won a race over 9 Furlongs in 3 years. His claim to fame is beating Cornithan at a distance he proved time and time again he didn't want

So yes, everyone taht placed a bet on Laywer Ron, I just sparked with Gee..

and to be honest, i saw curlin live twice this year, I lvoe him to death, but i picked Tiago to win it, so I'm not perfect, but all I ant is for Curlin to get his respect and for people to stop throwin out the unreal breeding shed numbers that he has no chance of getting this year.


there were 3 condentors made by the MEDIA. IMHO hard spun had no shot of winning the rce, but was a lock of running iTM. I actually thought SS in all honesty would run better than he did, but IMHO it was a 3 horse race between Curlin, Tiago and George Washington. Just like the media made it a 1 horse race last year.

[Semipro]

Originally Posted by ghostyapper

Yes street sense became the first horse to win the bc juvy and derby but what exactly does that mean? Somehow I don't see the connection between that accomplishment and becoming a horse with "nothing left to prove" half way into his 3yo season. Up untill the Belmont he hadn't even proven he was the best 3yo so saying he had nothing to prove is laughable.





Here we go with the excuses again. Lawyer Ron and AGS not showing up does not erase street senses defeat no matter how much you want it to. Lawyer Ron and AGS were not in contention around the far turn. This is a sign that they either didn't show up or didn't like the track. There were 3 clear contenders around the turn that were all running their race and you know who they were. I would venture to say 99% of the street senseless gang thought the horse was a lock for a victory around the turn. He was taking to the track and making his run. Curlin and Hard Spun proved to be better in the stretch. Are they 10-15 lengths better than street sense? No. Street Sense probably "threw in the towel" when he realized he was 3rd best. He clearly does not have the heart of hard spun nor the talent of Curlin. Conclusion? 3rd best

In the derby, both street sense and hard spun finished 5 or more lengths ahead of Curlin. Does that mean the results were skewed because they obviously are not 5 lengths better than Curlin? See how weak your arguments are when we use them on your love child?

Exactly I think what people overlook most is how much Curlin matured in his last two months. He looked like he's been working out with weights on steriods.

[46zilzal]

As much as I disliked HS all year, both he and Curlin showed the kind of maturation energy pattern that one sees in three year olds that don't plateau in their sophomore year.

[NYPlayer]

Originally Posted by ghostyapper

Yes street sense became the first horse to win the bc juvy and derby but what exactly does that mean?

I think it means that he's an extroadinary horse.

Originally Posted by ghostyapper

Somehow I don't see the connection between that accomplishment and becoming a horse with "nothing left to prove" half way into his 3yo season.

You misquoted me. I said he had nothing to prove in the Belmont. He had already beaten all of other 3 yo colts in the Derby including Curlin, but due to his loss in the Preak he could not win the Triple Crown. The next objective was the Travers followed by the Classic, and the idea was not to take a risk in running the horse when there was a lot to do later in the year.

Originally Posted by ghostyapper

Up untill the Belmont he hadn't even proven he was the best 3yo..

Please rethink this statement and re-post. It sounds ridiculous. He breaks the seemingly unbeatable Juvy Jinx coming from 19th to win the Derby, and he's not the best three year old going into the Belmont? His loss to Curlin in the Preakness was by a head. It meant virtually nothing. Curlin went on to lose the Belmont anyway, and then some people believed that Rags to Riches was the best 3 yo.

Originally Posted by ghostyapper

Here we go with the excuses again. Lawyer Ron and AGS not showing up does not erase street senses defeat no matter how much you want it to. Lawyer Ron and AGS were not in contention around the far turn. This is a sign that they either didn't show up or didn't like the track. There were 3 clear contenders around the turn that were all running their race and you know who they were. I would venture to say 99% of the street senseless gang thought the horse was a lock for a victory around the turn. He was taking to the track and making his run. Curlin and Hard Spun proved to be better in the stretch. Are they 10-15 lengths better than street sense? No. Street Sense probably "threw in the towel" when he realized he was 3rd best. He clearly does not have the heart of hard spun nor the talent of Curlin. Conclusion? 3rd best

In the derby, both street sense and hard spun finished 5 or more lengths ahead of Curlin. Does that mean the results were skewed because they obviously are not 5 lengths better than Curlin? See how weak your arguments are when we use them on your love child?

One of the oldest handicapping principles that is well understood by most regular 'cappers - when you see a bad race in the mud from a horse you know is good you throw it out. It's meaningless.

[gIracing]

okay, i'm going to beat you with your own logic.


Because you want to throw the BC Classic, (which is laughable, because he has been preping for this race since May, and pundints all week were touting how he had an advantage because curlin had never raced over slop and Street Sense already had a race over off track, but okay whatever), Curlin won the last head to head matchup.


And because there was "no point" in seeing who was the better horse, given Curlin ran a very crediable belmont, curlin by default is the better horse.


you loose

[ghostyapper]

Originally Posted by NYPlayer

Please rethink this statement and re-post. It sounds ridiculous. He breaks the seemingly unbeatable Juvy Jinx coming from 19th to win the Derby, and he's not the best three year old going into the Belmont? His loss to Curlin in the Preakness was by a head. It meant virtually nothing. Curlin went on to lose the Belmont anyway, and then some people believed that Rags to Riches was the best 3 yo.

Ridiculous? Curlin was perceived as the best 3yo heading into the derby. Street sense went off as the slight favorite because of his success at churchill. Street gets a dream trip and wins, while curlin suffers his first defeat, getting bumped and having to go 5 wide. In the preakness Curlin blows the turn, gets passed by street sense and rallies back to win. He won by a head but most would agree he ran a much more impressive race than that.

So after that your belief was SS had proven to be the best 3yo? Not surprising considering you had him as clearly the best 3yo heading into the bc as well despite what was taking place on the track the previous month.

Originally Posted by NYPlayer

One of the oldest handicapping principles that is well understood by most regular 'cappers - when you see a bad race in the mud from a horse you know is good you throw it out. It's meaningless.

Looks like you took a page from the book of another street sense adorer on this forum. When the debate and facts get too tough, bow out gracefully with unintelligent one liner. Nicely done.

Still doesn't change the fact that SS will go down as the 3rd best 3yo of this generation.

[NYPlayer]

Originally Posted by ghostyapper

Ridiculous? Curlin was perceived as the best 3yo heading into the derby. Street sense went off as the slight favorite because of his success at churchill. Street gets a dream trip and wins, while curlin suffers his first defeat, getting bumped and having to go 5 wide. In the preakness Curlin blows the turn, gets passed by street sense and rallies back to win. He won by a head but most would agree he ran a much more impressive race than that..

I wouldn't call Street's trip a dream trip. He had to face the same 19 horses that Curlin did. Good horses usually make their wins look easy. I think that's why it was so popular. Curlin looked beat in the Preakness after he had some slight trouble, but he did rally back late, surprisingly. Assmussen has been under suspicion before, and I know I was not the only one who was skeptical. I refer you to Andy Beyer's column written immediately afterwards.

Originally Posted by ghostyapper

Looks like you took a page from the book of another street sense adorer on this forum. When the debate and facts get too tough, bow out gracefully with unintelligent one liner. Nicely done.

I just tried to think of a relevant, quick answer to another poorly thought out post from you. Thanks anyway.

Originally Posted by ghostyapper

Still doesn't change the fact that SS will go down as the 3rd best 3yo of this generation.

I'm sure.

[ghostyapper]

Originally Posted by NYPlayer

Assmussen has been under suspicion before, and I know I was not the only one who was skeptical. I refer you to Andy Beyer's column written immediately afterwards.

I take back the compliment. Looks like you're not "bowing out gracefully" at all. Now its "Curlin was juiced"?

There are people out on ledges right now that are less desperate than you.