Curlin

[chickenhead]

here's a fun book on the subject when one tires of reading handicapping tomes: Stud

[peakpros]

Originally Posted by Tom

Yeah, like Curlin ducked out of the Travers.

your knock on curlin is that he got beat by a filly in the belmont...

well SS opted out of the race where curlin got beat by a filly...in that race SS may have won...but he also may have been no better than third.....


so using the lose against the filly is just too funny....

curlin didn't duck SS in the breeders cup...did he?

[russowen77]

Originally Posted by Indulto

Irrefutable logic.

Naive question, perhaps: Do today's stallions require pharmaceutical assistance to maintain potency for what looks like more than double the covers of yesteryear's progenitors?

Good question. 50 used to be considered a full book. I don't think many of the breeders today have a clue, just money.

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by Tom

Yeah, like Curlin ducked out of the Travers.

Ducked of the Travers? You must be kidding because between May 19th and the date of the Travers, Aug 25th, Street Sense ran one race, the Jim Dandy and Curlin ran in two races, the Belmont (which Street Sense was opted out by his connections) and the Haskell.

It is my opinion that after the Haskell, Curlin’s connections felt that he needed a rest and from the results, a win against older horses in the JCGC and another win (again against older horses) in the Breeders’ Cup Classic they were apparently right with their decision.

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by russowen77

The math of what they risk to run Curlin again. Ghostzapper is a good example. Ghostzapper covered 111 mares his first season with 84 live foals at 100K a pop. 8.4 mil for the first season vs 3.5 mil for his career and without the expenses of racing. He covered 117 mares this year so one could reasonably expect another 8.5 mil in the bank for his efforts this year.

Curlin made more money and in my opinion is better bred. Ghostzappers DP is 7-1-6-0-0 (14). Curlin is 9-3-8-0-0 (20). He should command even more attention from the breeders. The math gets real sick real fast folks. He could easily cover 175 mares next season at 150k per. Not only can they break down but they can also die prematurely. I would not only want the cash but I would also want to make sure he is in the gene pool.

A very good observation and comment although it doesn't speak well for the racing fan in that they don't get the chance to see the good horses race very long.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Cratos

Ducked of the Travers? You must be kidding because between May 19th and the date of the Travers, Aug 25th, Street Sense ran one race, the Jim Dandy and Curlin ran in two races, the Belmont (which Street Sense was opted out by his connections) and the Haskell.

It is my opinion that after the Haskell, Curlin’s connections felt that he needed a rest and from the results, a win against older horses in the JCGC and another win (again against older horses) in the Breeders’ Cup Classic they were apparently right with their decision.

And after the Preakness, is it not possible SS's connections felt the same way?

[peakpros]

Originally Posted by Tom

And after the Preakness, is it not possible SS's connections felt the same way?

I'm sure they did..and it was probable the right thing to do....

But you can't (shouldn't) knock Curlin...like you have....because he lost to rags to riches....(making a start in all three triple crown races, no less....)

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by Tom

And after the Preakness, is it not possible SS's connections felt the same way?

Had the photo reversed the nose decision, do you believe for an instant that SS wouldn't have shown up for the Belmont? By SS's connections' logic, Curlin and Hard Spun should have skipped the Preakness.

Even without a Triple Crown on the line. the rubber match would have drawn a tremendous crowd at Belmont. How convevient for Empire (when they still included CDI and MEC) that NYRA's biggest day was compromised! I guess Hayward knows how Chick Lang must have felt. (This is also why they need a bonus that pays off for two victorious legs and all three starts as well.)

That they didn't even consider running SS tells me they didn't think SS could beat Curlin. If they had any confidence, they could always have waited to see how he was doing, and scratch at the last minute, if necessary.

A hard Belmont follwed by a sub-par Haskell suggested that Curlin was due for a rest rather than a race. It's clear to me who did the ducking and who did the quacking.

I see an Aflac commercial in Tom's future!

[Tom]

I think it pretty doubtful SS ducked anyone. He had nothing to prove by running the Belmont. And Curlin goes and looses to a filly! Great move.
The point is, SS trounced Curlin in the Derby. Why run a mile and a half with nothing to gain? He had a schedule mapped out and took the time off to be rested for it.I serioulsy doubt either horse ducked anything - I just suggested Curlin ducked becasue the idea that SS did sounded so ridiculous I was mocking the poster who said it.

SS is my choice for HOY. My opinion. He did more all year. Culin - HOO (Horse of October) or HOOF (Horse of only Fall)

(I bet two horses in the Classic - SS and Curlin.)

[Semipro]

Originally Posted by Tom

I think it pretty doubtful SS ducked anyone. He had nothing to prove by running the Belmont. And Curlin goes and looses to a filly! Great move.
The point is, SS trounced Curlin in the Derby. Why run a mile and a half with nothing to gain? He had a schedule mapped out and took the time off to be rested for it.I serioulsy doubt either horse ducked anything - I just suggested Curlin ducked becasue the idea that SS did sounded so ridiculous I was mocking the poster who said it.

SS is my choice for HOY. My opinion. He did more all year. Culin - HOO (Horse of October) or HOOF (Horse of only Fall)

(I bet two horses in the Classic - SS and Curlin.)

Curlin beat SS 2 outta 3 and the last was by railroad cars not lenghts last year doesn't count.The reason he lost was because when he and Curlin moved he realized he could not match the the winner. Geez horses know when they are not the best and they don't know how to read sheets but they do know when they are beat. Make any case for SS to be HOY is just not logical and I'm not even really smart.

[46zilzal]

Big fan of SS. Logic says he gets some votes for three year old. Horse of the Year is the one who battled the best against the all year and that is Curlin.

Did not hurt him that Smart Strike is also the sire of the Turf winner as well.

[Semipro]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Big fan of SS. Logic says he gets some votes for three year old. Horse of the Year is the one who battled the best against the all year and that is Curlin.

Did not hurt him that Smart Strike is also the sire of the Turf winner as well.

NOt at all totally agree personaly think he's the type of horse that might be good on any surface. P.S. don't say half brother or you will get called out for being incorrect as you know only the mare has any say in kindship.

[gIracing]

1. Ghostzapper was at 200k a pop when he hit the shed and covered 112 mares in 06

Also, Curlin is not as "brilliant" as Ghostzapper was.. 5 races of over a 120 Beyer in a row at different distances. Still holds the record for BC Classic time in 1:59 flat, in other words as great as curlin was saturday, Ghostzapper still would have been looking at him in his rear view mirror


2. Curlin is hurt by his pedigree. I really don't undersatnd where everyone just throws out these nubmers as to what he can and will stand for. There are other horses out there, other proven horses, and a price has to be put on that will attract breeders. You just don't throw a horse at stud and 100 mares just show up. curlin isn't going to be at 100k or close to it, when you can go to his sire, the leading sire in the country, right now for 150k. Out of an unraced mare, his female dam line is one of the worst I have ever seen, literalry, in my life. his half siblings, Deputy was a mid level claimer at sAm houston, Secret Wedge was a mide level claimer at Retma before.. hell I dont' know, I guess retiring, Ms Deep Cover came in 3rd in her only race a TExas Bred Maiden special weight in 04, and she died in 05, and COMIC HERO is actually racing in SoCal now, his last race was a 22k maiden open claiming race at hollywood park on may 19th, that he came in 12th.

going back, his dam's siblings weren't anything to write home about either. Curlin's aunt is Angel in the wind who never broke her maiden on the New York Circuit, barb's bad boy is his uncle, and you should all be somewhat familar iwt him, he just won a $3200 claimer at fresnoabout 2 weeks ago

the rest are unraced.

So, not only is Curlin's family unfashionable.. they are just plain not good. compare this to Street Sense, wo comes from the same family as Mr. greeley, and as much as I don't like Mr. greeley, he will get you a runner, corinthian comes from the same family as Sadler's Wells and stormy Atlantic.. nuff said on that one.

even Ghostzapper is closely related to Lil E Tee and he's city Zip's half brother, and he has a very good horse (not GZ good but good) in NY trained by Frankel named Aristocrat. He might have just been retired


so getting back to point. Given what is just laid out there, where in the world does everyone gets these outragous numbers where curlin is going to earn this and that much and get x amount of mares.

Curlin will be back next year, because he still hasn't outran his pedigree. Yes it's all about math you are correct in that. the math being, no farm is going to give the owners 30 million dollars or anything close to it for...that. the most he could stand for now is about where invasor is, 35k, and at 100 mares, that's 3.5 million if he's l ucky, and he can make that winning the dubai world cup next year.

[gIracing]

Originally Posted by chickenhead

here's a fun book on the subject when one tires of reading handicapping tomes: Stud

OMG this book is better tahn porn! I coudln't put it down!

[Tom]

He got beat by a filly!