Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 06-24-2019, 08:35 PM   #31
taxicab
Registered User
 
taxicab's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by clicknow View Post
How extremely hard working grooms, hotwalkers and backside workers, who take care of the horses that we all love to watch, and without whom there would BE no racing, engendered a conversation here about convicts in day programs working in restaurants as cooks and diswashers, is beyond me?
It's a message board,with its fair share of characters(who have lived a little)........normal digression don't ya know.
taxicab is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-24-2019, 09:58 PM   #32
clicknow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
THEY are the ones who initiate the arrangement, in most cases. This is how it works in many privately owned small businesses...and my guess is that such is the case here too.
In most cases, huh?
And your guess it's the same here too?

At least you said you're guessing.

So basically not paying them correctly is not legal. And paying them under the table is not legal either.

so overall, all you're saying is that many of these racing outfits are not observing the labor laws.

(But somehow, it's the employees fault.)

Doesn't say much about the leadership and captains of these business outfits. You seem to be implying that they are being *manipulated* by their employees. which if you are a leader, doesn't happen unless you let it happen.
clicknow is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-24-2019, 10:07 PM   #33
clicknow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
P.S. But Brown and Asmussen hardly qualify as "small businesses" for the purposes of this topic anyway, right?

per your comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
This is how it works in many privately owned small businesses...and my guess is that such is the case here too.

Last edited by clicknow; 06-24-2019 at 10:11 PM.
clicknow is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-24-2019, 10:40 PM   #34
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by clicknow View Post
so overall, all you're saying is that many of these racing outfits are not observing the labor laws.

(But somehow, it's the employees fault.)

Doesn't say much about the leadership and captains of these business outfits. You seem to be implying that they are being *manipulated* by their employees. which if you are a leader, doesn't happen unless you let it happen.
I didn't say it's ANYBODY'S fault. People have needs, and these needs are sometimes met by breaking existing laws. Let me put it this way:

You work for me and you do a good job...and I pay you $20 an hour for a 40 hour workweek. You come to me and tell me that you need 15 hours a week overtime in order to pay your bills...and I tell you that I don't allow overtime because I can't afford the time-and-a-half overtime pay-scale. You tell me that you don't care about the time-and-a-half...you just want the extra hours. What's the "right thing" for me to do here? Do I deny you the extra hours that you need so you can pay your bills? You are a good employee, and I don't want you to struggle financially. But I honestly may not be able to afford to be paying my employees $30 an hour for work that really deserves $20 an hour. If you don't come to me with this request, then I would never ask you to work the extra 15 hours a week. But you initiate the conversation, and you persistently ask me for the extra hours. What do I do without being the "bad guy" here?

I'm not placing "blame" on anybody in this scenario...I'm just telling you what I've seen with my own eyes during my own business travels. What looks like "willful employee underpayment" is often an arrangement which the EMPLOYEE initiates, out of a need that, unless it's met...would create considerable inconvenience for him/her. From the outside, it might look as if the boss is forcing the employees to work the extra hours for lesser-than-legal pay. But my own experience has shown me that this is usually not the case at all.
__________________
Live to play another day.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-25-2019, 03:43 AM   #35
clicknow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
I didn't say it's ANYBODY'S fault. People have needs, and these needs are sometimes met by breaking existing laws.
Yeah, that happened to me when I was mugged by a drug addict. He had a need.

Nobody's fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
What's the "right thing" for me to do here? Do I deny you the extra hours that you need so you can pay your bills?
Um, yes. If it involves breaking the law.

That employee needs to either seek work elsewhere, with a job or employer who can meet his/her needs, or if you value them enough, then pay them overtime. Otherwise, get "another warm body" if you think that is an apt replacement for said employee. Value is value.

Strange set of ethics here. If the whole world ran like this, which I hope it doesn't, it' would be chaos.

Nice work though, saying it is usually employee initiated. Puts the blame squarely where you think it should be I guess.

Last edited by clicknow; 06-25-2019 at 03:46 AM.
clicknow is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-25-2019, 03:55 AM   #36
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by clicknow View Post
Yeah, that happened to me when I was mugged by a drug addict. He had a need.

Nobody's fault.



Um, yes. If it involves breaking the law.

That employee needs to either seek work elsewhere, with a job or employer who can meet his/her needs, or if you value them enough, then pay them overtime. Otherwise, get "another warm body" if you think that is an apt replacement for said employee. Value is value.


Strange set of ethics here. If the whole world ran like this, which I hope it doesn't, it' would be chaos.
Is anybody preventing the employee from getting another job with an employer who can better meet his needs? The employees are always free to find more suitable work...but the fact that they willfully offer to work overtime hours without overtime pay shows that seeking a more profitable job isn't a viable option for them.

I am not making a statement about my own set of "ethics", friend. I am retired from the business world...and I am only relaying the lessons that my working life has taught me. I'm not the villain in this...I am only the messenger.
__________________
Live to play another day.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-25-2019, 04:04 AM   #37
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by clicknow View Post

Nice work though, saying it is usually employee initiated. Puts the blame squarely where you think it should be I guess.
If there is a kinder employer out there than I used to be...then I would sure like to shake his hand face to face. And when I say that this is usually employee initiated...you can take that to the bank. Sorry if I am revealing a side of our world that you'd rather not know about.
__________________
Live to play another day.

Last edited by thaskalos; 06-25-2019 at 04:05 AM.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-25-2019, 04:25 AM   #38
clicknow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
If there is a kinder employer out there than I used to be...then I would sure like to shake his hand face to face.
To be clear, I "get" that about you. And it is, in the heart's value, commendable. I apologize if I insulted you in any way, that was not my intent really.

I'm not a youngster, and have been out in the world working for over 35 years so yeah, I know what you are saying, and some of the stuff I've seen would probably shake many people right down to their boots..... so no, I'm no Pollyanna. I knew the family of one of the guys who lost his life in the Deepwater Horizon incident, so I'm also no stranger to gross negligence and willful misconduct and the extent some individuals will go to save/get money.

I reread your post and realized you were just giving the "lay of the land" but for me it was like yeah, so what else is new.

Situations exist. Some are sticky. That is why it's not *easy* to do the right thing, if it were, everyone would do it.

Last edited by clicknow; 06-25-2019 at 04:27 AM.
clicknow is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-25-2019, 04:30 AM   #39
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by clicknow View Post
To be clear, I "get" that about you. And it is, in the heart's value, commendable. I apologize if I insulted you in any way, that was not my intent really.

I'm not a youngster, and have been out in the world working for over 35 years so yeah, I know what you are saying, and some of the stuff I've seen would probably shake many people right down to their boots..... so no, I'm no Pollyanna. I knew the family of one of the guys who lost his life in the Deepwater Horizon incident, so I'm also no stranger to gross negligence and willful misconduct and the extent some individuals will go to save/get money.

I reread your post and realized you were just giving the "lay of the land" but for me it was like yeah, so what else is new.

Situations exist. Some are sticky. That is why it's not *easy* to do the right thing, if it were, everyone would do it.
You've said it so well...there is no need for me to add even a single word.
__________________
Live to play another day.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-27-2019, 06:51 PM   #40
highnote
Registered User
 
highnote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomOnTour View Post
Read closely....I said some of them move up to other positions AFTER their release.
Frankly, it's NONE OF MY CUSTOMERS BUSINESS what type of background my staff has. If you've EVER eaten at a restaurant in your life chances are that the person who made your food is a user of illegal drugs and most likely has a criminal record.
Consider that FACT before you go out to eat again
It isn't always a criminal that contaminates your food. A colleague of mine told me he worked in an upscale restaurant when he was in high school. He was cleaning the ceiling in the kitchen. On the stove was a pot of soup that the chef had spent a long time preparing and it had been simmering all day waiting for the dinner hour. My friend accidentally dropped his cleaning rag into the soup. The chef saw it happen. My colleague was mortified that he ruined a large pot of soup that the chef had labored over for hours. The chef told him not to worry and just pull out the rag and get a new one. The soup was served that evening.

You never really know what you're getting. Did the server blow his nose, not wash his hands, and then touch the tips of your silverware?

I was in a restaurant in the old town part of Quebec several years ago. I went to use the restroom and our waiter was in the restroom, too. He finished up and then left the restroom without washing his hands. That kind of ruined my appetite.
highnote is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-27-2019, 08:10 PM   #41
Frost king
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 310
As an employer, you should know the laws, and the la s clearly state, that you or your employee can not waive any part of the labour act. Even though, the employee is willing to waive his rights to overtime, you cannot take advantage of his situation. So you have one of two choices, either turn his request down or pay him the overtime. Any other outcome, you as the employer are liable.
Frost king is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-27-2019, 08:11 PM   #42
elhelmete
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
If there is a kinder employer out there than I used to be...then I would sure like to shake his hand face to face. And when I say that this is usually employee initiated...you can take that to the bank. Sorry if I am revealing a side of our world that you'd rather not know about.
Then I will meet you somewhere to shake your hand!

I bend over backward to pay employees not just fairly but correctly. In the last 2-3 years, managing payroll has become vastly more difficult and time consuming. And I can say this 100% unequivocally: almost all of the changes in how you must pay people have made it much harder to reward good employees.
elhelmete is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-27-2019, 08:17 PM   #43
elhelmete
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost king View Post
As an employer, you should know the laws, and the la s clearly state, that you or your employee can not waive any part of the labour act. Even though, the employee is willing to waive his rights to overtime, you cannot take advantage of his situation. So you have one of two choices, either turn his request down or pay him the overtime. Any other outcome, you as the employer are liable.
There's a third choice, and it's not a great one but it's used a lot.

Reduce his hourly rate to minimum wage and pay the OT.

Say you want to pay a groom $100/day (these are all fictitious numbers to prove a point).

At 8 hours, no overtime that = $12.50 per hour. The OT rate would be $18.75/hr. Let's say minimum wage is $9/hr.

Let's say for a couple weeks you have horses shipping in from somewhere and the groom wants to work overtime to help, let's say that would be 10 work hours per day for a while.

If you paid OT, he would make $137.50 a day.

BUT. You can hire him/everyone at minimum wage and that 10 hour day (paying the OT) now only costs you $99 AND you work him 10 hours.

No biggie, right? NOPE.

When it quiets back down, and you aren't paying more than 8 hours a day of work, he now ends up making $72/day. Not good for him.
elhelmete is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-28-2019, 07:52 AM   #44
lex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NY
Posts: 256
Now some kids want Chad Brown booted from speaking at a high school graduation.

https://www.timesunion.com/news/arti...r-14056139.php
lex is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-28-2019, 09:43 AM   #45
rastajenk
Just Deplorable
 
rastajenk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Lebanon, Ohio
Posts: 8,034
From that link:
Quote:
"Personally, I'm outraged," said Bub, who is one of about 100 seniors.
There's no shortage of outrage these days.
rastajenk is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.