Mine That Bird

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

I think the issue some have is the reverence in which Rachael Alexandra is held, though she had flaws, yet Zenyatta is routinely trashed on social media and message boards for what seems like biased reasons.

Surely you jest. Just the opposite is true. Zenyata has taken a fanatical following largely based on hype and there is a a cruel backlash directed at Rachel for having accomplished more than her and gotten a well deserved HOY over her in 2010. If you notice my resentment is more at her ownership for having run a cowardly campaign and almost entirely raced her against weak California fillies and mares when she could have really shown her considerable talent against open competition more than just twice in her long career.

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

The Dubai World Cup is far younger than the Brooklyn Handicap. But it is a crucially important race and the Brooklyn isn't.

The BC destroyed the importance of the NY stakes schedule. You may dislike it but it happened. There is no such thing as a "NY Fall Championship Season" anymore. New York's races are usually irrelevant to the championships- you can win championships just as easily prepping for the BC at Santa Anita or Keeneland.

Had RA won the Woodward 60 or even 36 years ago, that would be very different. But the Woodward she won was a BC prep, and many of the good older horses were running in other BC preps.

In describing Rachel's career to not even mention her win in the Woodward and replacing that with she only had a win in a BC Classic prep, as you did, is clear evidence of either a bias against the filly or complete nonsense.

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

No, Bob...I have nothing personal against Rachel Alexandra. I've even said that she had a phenomenal 3 year-old campaign. You, on the other hand, had derided Zenyatta in several posts here before I even entered the conversation. So...the "personal bias against the horse" appears, to me at least, to reside with you.

As far as your diagnosis of Rachel's "ailments" is concerned...I won't argue with it because there is no point in me doing so. To me, it appears to be just a convenient excuse. But then again, unlike you...I don't presume to possess any equine medical training...so, I could easily be mistaken.

I have not derided Zenyattas accomplishments but merely pointed to the fact that the vast majority of them were against inferior competition due to the way her connections campaigned her. She likely had the potential to be a great race mare had she not been campaigned in such a cowardly manner. My complaint is not against her but with her owners.

Actually I do have medical training and studied musculo-skeletal disorders in medical school and have seen much the same ailments in my work with racehorses. Likely a lot more than you have, I'll wager. However one doe not even need advanced medical training, just some common sense, to realize that something had to go wrong with Rachel to account for her dramatic decline in form. No "excuse" needed. Or maybe you think there was some magical force responsible for her 3YO accomplishments which just as magically disappeared the next year.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

I have not derided Zenyattas accomplishments but merely pointed to the fact that the vast majority of them were against inferior competition due to the way her connections campaigned her. She likely had the potential to be a great race mare had she not been campaigned in such a cowardly manner. My complaint is not against her but with her owners.

Actually I do have medical training and studied musculo-skeletal disorders in medical school and have seen much the same ailments in my work with racehorses. Likely a lot more than you have, I'll wager. However one doe not even need advanced medical training, just some common sense, to realize that something had to go wrong with Rachel to account for her dramatic decline in form. No "excuse" needed. Or maybe you think there was some magical force responsible for her 3YO accomplishments which just as magically disappeared the next year.

There was no medical ailment of any kind reported by the Rachel camp during that time-period...otherwise a horse of that stature would surely have been retired, instead of kept on the track. If you were able to diagnose Rachel's medical problem from afar...then you aren't just smarter than me, you are also smarter than Steve Asmussen.

There is no point in arguing with you, bobphilo...your "lectures" here don't amount to much. I recall your past strictly-theoretical argument into "pace-pattern handicapping"...where you called me an archaic handicapper because I was slow to accept your unfounded pace-handicapping beliefs. As that thread progressed...several people here tried to coax you into giving us a "live" sample of your pace-handicapping theories on a race yet to be run...but you predictably declined the invitation. I do give you credit for one thing, though: When I challenged you to a handicapping contest after you called me an archaic handicapper...you had the good sense to refuse...thus depriving me of the opportunity to show you how inferior to me you are as a handicapper...your endless theorizing notwithstanding.

[elhelmete]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

Surely you jest. Just the opposite is true. Zenyata has taken a fanatical following largely based on hype and there is a a cruel backlash directed at Rachel for having accomplished more than her and gotten a well deserved HOY over her in 2010. .

?? Z won the 2010 HOTY. RA the '09.

[bobphilo]

As far as the claim that I have a bias against Zenyetta, let me direct you to the original topic of this thread which was in praise of Mine That Bird and his Derby performance. I joined in that praise in pointing to that he went on to run a good second to the great filly Rachel Alexandria in the Preakness. That generated a stream of hate so many hold against Rachel meant to demean her accomplishments as well as me personally as a handicapper and my medical knowledge, rooted on a personal vendetta from long ago. People have put forth absurd arguments based on judging a horse on their failures which would have made Secretariat look bad, to referring to the Gr1 Woodward as nothing but a prep race and nothing more. Let's not forget criticisms of her as a broodmare,where she was only able to have 2 foals for health reasons despite which 1 of her 2 offspring became a 2 time GR1 winner.

Most offensively, I'm sure there are plenty of people here that would take issue with the original statement That Mine That Bird would have beaten any race horse from the past 30 years with his Derby performance but no, that kind of venom is reserved for anyone they think is overvaluing Rachel. I ask anyone to look at that and not call that hypocrisy. I am not the biased one here and I am not just talking about a bias against a horse.

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

?? Z won the 2010 HOTY. RA the '09.

Right. I ought to hire you as my proof reader.

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

?? Z won the 2010 HOTY. RA the '09.

All Eclipse awards are voted on and given in the year following the performances on which they are based.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

She won one Classic and lost a photo finish in another. That puts her behind only Tiznow and right there with Alysheba in terms of performance in that race. That's not "plenty of horses". That's three.

That's you changing the goalposts. I was very clear in what I said: a win and a loss the following year.

By my count, there are 11 horses that did that.

Nevertheless, using your new goalposts, you are still wrong.

Gate Dancer, Cigar, Mucho Macho Man, and California Chrome. Each won or were in close finishes in 2 BC Classics.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

When, do you suppose, will we see another female horse accomplish such a feat?

Such a feat? Look no further than the last 10 or so Arc de Triomphes. Of course many of those actually won the race twice...

If Shuvee meets your definition of 'unique' then I suppose its a 30-40 year wait. Of course, Zenyatta didn't remotely come close to accomplishing what Shuvee did.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

Surely you jest.

Then you dont follow the same professional (industry types) on twitter that I do. I routinely see shots with Zenyatta and its been years since I think anything even discussion RA has come up in a feed.

I dont care about some super fan #99 on twitter.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Such a feat? Look no further than the last 10 or so Arc de Triomphes. Of course many of those actually won the race twice...

If Shuvee meets your definition of 'unique' then I suppose its a 30-40 year wait. Of course, Zenyatta didn't remotely come close to accomplishing what Shuvee did.

That's silly. Shuvee was wonderful, but there were few races in that era that were as strong as a modern BC Classic with a big field, and Shuvee never ran in any of them.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

That's you changing the goalposts. I was very clear in what I said: a win and a loss the following year.

By my count, there are 11 horses that did that.

Nevertheless, using your new goalposts, you are still wrong.

Gate Dancer, Cigar, Mucho Macho Man, and California Chrome. Each won or were in close finishes in 2 BC Classics.

Only Mucho Macho Man won one and finished in the win photo in the other.

That's 4.

And there were no goalposts. You said something howlingly wrong, and having been called on it, didn't admit it and changed the subject.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Only Mucho Macho Man won one and finished in the win photo in the other.

That's 4.

Zenyatta lost her second BC Classic by a head. Cigar lost his second BC Classic by a head.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

And there were no goalposts. You said something howlingly wrong, and having been called on it, didn't admit it and changed the subject.

I said nothing wrong. I just didn't respond to thaskalos' post the way you would have liked. Eleven horses have won the BC Classic and lost the race the following year.

You, on the other hand, were wrong about the number of horses that performed up to your own standards in 2 BC Classics.