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Old 05-27-2019, 04:26 AM   #31
bobphilo
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Originally Posted by Spalding No! View Post
Plenty of horses have won the BC Classic and then lost the race the following year both before and after Zenyatta.

Plenty of horses have won the Apple Blossom, Milady, Lady's Secret, Clement Hirsch, and Vanity multiple times.

That said, I don't think many horses have run in the same 4 races for 3 straight years...so there' s that.
Except for the BC Classic in which she was 1 for 2. Long winning streaks against inferior competition is not much of an accomplishment.
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Old 05-27-2019, 04:34 AM   #32
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Rachel had a phenomenal 3 year-old campaign...but was a disappointment as a 4 year-old. Zenyatta, on the other hand, scared the daylights out of the best male horses in the land twice, in the BC Classic...as an AGED MARE. My money says that Rachel's accomplishments will be duplicated LONG before Zenyatta's will. Rachel was special...but Zenyatta was UNIQUE!
Zenyatta ran longer but never had a year like Rachel. That's why Rachel beat her out for HOY the year by both raced though Zenyatta was more mature. Secretariat never even ran at 4 and I think he will be remembered. Any horse who stays sound will improve as they get older. A horse doesn't even fully mature until 5.
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Old 05-27-2019, 09:38 AM   #33
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Plenty of horses have won the BC Classic and then lost the race the following year both before and after Zenyatta.
When, do you suppose, will we see another female horse accomplish such a feat?
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Old 05-27-2019, 09:51 AM   #34
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Zenyatta ran longer but never had a year like Rachel. That's why Rachel beat her out for HOY the year by both raced though Zenyatta was more mature. Secretariat never even ran at 4 and I think he will be remembered. Any horse who stays sound will improve as they get older. A horse doesn't even fully mature until 5.
Oh...I see. You use the HOY as a valid barometer when it suits your argument...but you denounce it when it doesn't. It was "justice" when Rachel got the nod over Zenyatta...but it was "thievery" when Zenyatta beat out Blame for the award. OK...

And, for your information, the "staying sound" excuse does't explain Rachel's deterioration during her 4 year-old campaign. Alas...Rachel's 4 year-old campaign will be remembered just as much as her 3 year-old campaign will. Sorry.
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Old 05-27-2019, 10:26 AM   #35
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If being great for a 6 month span was all there was to being considered one of the best ever I would say Arrogate would drown what Rachel Alexandra accomplished and comparative abilities would render a match up between the two a decidedly one horse affair.

Of course being great for multiple seasons is such a rarity in the modern game it becomes hard to quantify.
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Old 05-27-2019, 10:41 AM   #36
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Oh...I see. You use the HOY as a valid barometer when it suits your argument...but you denounce it when it doesn't. It was "justice" when Rachel got the nod over Zenyatta...but it was "thievery" when Zenyatta beat out Blame for the award. OK...

And, for your information, the "staying sound" excuse does't explain Rachel's deterioration during her 4 year-old campaign. Alas...Rachel's 4 year-old campaign will be remembered just as much as her 3 year-old campaign will. Sorry.
I can use the HOY award as one valid indicator or not when I can point out the reasons behind my opinions, which I did.
Rachel was just not the same horse at 4 as she was at 3. She did not mysteriously lose her ability when she should be getting better unless there was some physical problem involved. Subtle muscular-skeletal problems are usually the cause when form goes south. Most racehorses, even young ones, have some form of arthritis. It's just a question of degree and time.
So you chose to remember a horses failures over it's accomplishments? I guess you mainly remember Secretariat's 4 losses rather than his great races when you think of him. Hmmm. Most don't do that that unless you have some personal bias against the horse to begin with.

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Old 05-27-2019, 10:55 AM   #37
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If being great for a 6 month span was all there was to being considered one of the best ever I would say Arrogate would drown what Rachel Alexandra accomplished and comparative abilities would render a match up between the two a decidedly one horse affair.

Of course being great for multiple seasons is such a rarity in the modern game it becomes hard to quantify.
I agree, Arrogate would likely beat Rachel in a match race but that's not the topic here. There can be different degrees of greatness and they can be nearly impossible to quantify which was not what I was trying to do with Rachel. Greatness also has a highly personal and subjective component and I don't understand the meanness shown when people feel the need to trash a horse that someone feels is great.
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Old 05-27-2019, 11:04 AM   #38
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I can use the HOY award as one valid indicator or not when I can point out the reasons behind my opinions, which I did.
Rachel was just not the same horse at 4 as she was at 3. She did not mysteriously lose her ability when she should be getting better unless there was some physical problem involved. Subtle muscular-skeletal problems are usually the cause when form goes south. Most racehorses, even young ones, have some form of arthritis. It's just a question of degree and time.
So you chose to remember a horses failures over it's accomplishments? I guess you mainly remember Secretariat's 4 losses rather than his great races when you think of him. Hmmm. Most don't do that that unless you have some personal bias against the horse to begin with.
No, Bob...I have nothing personal against Rachel Alexandra. I've even said that she had a phenomenal 3 year-old campaign. You, on the other hand, had derided Zenyatta in several posts here before I even entered the conversation. So...the "personal bias against the horse" appears, to me at least, to reside with you.

As far as your diagnosis of Rachel's "ailments" is concerned...I won't argue with it because there is no point in me doing so. To me, it appears to be just a convenient excuse. But then again, unlike you...I don't presume to possess any equine medical training...so, I could easily be mistaken.
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Old 05-27-2019, 11:25 AM   #39
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I agree, Arrogate would likely beat Rachel in a match race but that's not the topic here. There can be different degrees of greatness and they can be nearly impossible to quantify which was not what I was trying to do with Rachel. Greatness also has a highly personal and subjective component and I don't understand the meanness shown when people feel the need to trash a horse that someone feels is great.
I think the issue some have is the reverence in which Rachael Alexandra is held, though she had flaws, yet Zenyatta is routinely trashed on social media and message boards for what seems like biased reasons.
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Old 05-27-2019, 12:42 PM   #40
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Plenty of horses have won the BC Classic and then lost the race the following year both before and after Zenyatta.

Plenty of horses have won the Apple Blossom, Milady, Lady's Secret, Clement Hirsch, and Vanity multiple times.

That said, I don't think many horses have run in the same 4 races for 3 straight years...so there' s that.
She won one Classic and lost a photo finish in another. That puts her behind only Tiznow and right there with Alysheba in terms of performance in that race. That's not "plenty of horses". That's three.
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Old 05-27-2019, 12:46 PM   #41
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To call the Woodward a "prep race" for the BC Classic is merely a device to degrade the accomplishment of a horse who wins it . The Woodward was around long before the BC Classic and Awesome Again and can stand on it's own. Prep races, such as the Florida Derby, Santa Anita Derby and the Blue Grass are commonly refereed to as Derby preps and are mainly used for that purpose. Same thing with the Jim Dandy for the Travers. However when referring to a horses career even they are also refereed to by their proper names, especially when a horse wins them. Not every horse who runs in the Woodward uses it to prep for the BC Classic. That is not what it was created for. The is true for the JC Gold Cup, which was part of the NY Fall Championship Season. The way you are using it loosely, any race which precedes a big race, including an allowance race, may be downgraded to a prep. When a Woodward winner goes to stud you do not just refer to them as merely a BC Classic prep winner unless you want to degrade their accomplishment and it is clear how you are using it here. Your referring to the Woodward as a prep, while loosely correct, is not an attempt to best describe it but a lawyers technique to downplay it's importance.
The Dubai World Cup is far younger than the Brooklyn Handicap. But it is a crucially important race and the Brooklyn isn't.

The BC destroyed the importance of the NY stakes schedule. You may dislike it but it happened. There is no such thing as a "NY Fall Championship Season" anymore. New York's races are usually irrelevant to the championships- you can win championships just as easily prepping for the BC at Santa Anita or Keeneland.

Had RA won the Woodward 60 or even 36 years ago, that would be very different. But the Woodward she won was a BC prep, and many of the good older horses were running in other BC preps.
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Old 05-27-2019, 12:58 PM   #42
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Long winning streaks against inferior competition is not much of an accomplishment.
It is if you're past 3-4 years old. Most in the U.S. cant keep their horses racing after 3. If it isn't much of an accomplishment, why aren't more able to do it?

Zenyatta, winner of 19 consecutive races in a 20-race career. It's hard to judge Rachel against that, because her accomplishments are great, but her greatness only lasted 1 season. So probbably not fair to try.

As for inferior competition Bob?: From DRF: "In winning the 2009 Breeders’ Cup Classic and running second in 2010, Zenyatta finished in front of 21 different horses. Four of those (Lookin At Lucky, Summer Bird, Colonel John, and Quality Road) never raced again, but 12 went on to win stakes races after losing to Zenyatta, and 10 of those were graded or group stakes winners. Those runners tallied 25 graded or group stakes wins after their loss to Zenyatta, including seven different horses who combined for 12 Grade or Group 1 wins."

At any rate, they were both deserving of high honors, but for different reasons. They never really gave Rachel a proper vacation from the track (she was kept at the track for her "time off".....what a horrible thing they did to her in doing that! A lot of people don't know this. )

And Zenyatta had the *personality* and flash .....Rachel was always more of a loner type.


How about Winx?
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Old 05-27-2019, 01:36 PM   #43
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I crushed the exacta.......funny thing though.

On my tickets his name was “all”
This is classic. I'm going steal this repeatedly.
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Old 05-27-2019, 01:39 PM   #44
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If you don't think Zenyatta was an all time great race mare, please take up another sport. You are missing this one.
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Old 05-27-2019, 02:29 PM   #45
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If you don't think Zenyatta was an all time great race mare, please take up another sport. You are missing this one.
There are no measures of her race career that do not put her in the great race mare, none.

She competed with the top males and females of the sport, across many years, in grade 1 races....all doing it with a style that is inherently up against it in american racing.
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