Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > **TRIPLE CROWN TRAIL**


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 06-04-2019, 11:07 AM   #121
cj
@TimeformUSfigs
 
cj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by clicknow View Post
I'm not sure I quite get the "you must run on dirt to be great" thing?

That would pretty much disqualify 3/4 of the world's race horses.

I guess there will always be the dirt racing is the only racing that counts sentiment, sort of like how wedded we are to lasix.

We are the outliers in both respects (dirt + lasix) compared to rest of the world.
I have no idea how you got that from what I said. I already said in this thread, twice I believe, she was a great racehorse.

As you read back through the thread, there was a discussion about how tough it is for females to beat top males on dirt going long, in particular in the Classic. Then a few replies seemed to be implying that Zenyatta had actually done it. She did not. That is all I was saying.
cj is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-04-2019, 11:14 AM   #122
clicknow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by depalma113 View Post
She ducked the richest race in the world with the lame retirement excuse.
Unlike Arrogate, Justify, Rachel and all the other so called great horses who are over and done with as "teenagers", given the actual lifespan and physical development of horses, Zenyatta was on the race track running the BCC at the age of 6.

So lame, right, to retire at age 6???

I actually have no idea why we are even talking about horses who had "one brilliant year" on the track.

Isn't that like those bands that were one-hit wonders?

Lets talk about real race horses like Gun Runner. Beholder. etc. And also horses like Einstein, etc. who can actually run on any surface like a real racehorse should be able to do.


FLash in the pan win early precocious horses are going to the breeding shed and that's why smart people are going to south america and elsewhere for breeding stock. We already sold our stamina horses and shipped them off to other nations a long time ago. Pretty soon there won't be much left, but maybe at some point when their pocketbooks get hit the breeders will sit up and notice. Meanwhile, we can just count on NYRA to keep shortening race distances, and maybe nobody will notice. .

Last edited by clicknow; 06-04-2019 at 11:17 AM.
clicknow is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-04-2019, 11:21 AM   #123
clicknow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj View Post
there was a discussion about how tough it is for females to beat top males on dirt going long, in particular in the Classic. Then a few replies seemed to be implying that Zenyatta had actually done it. She did not. That is all I was saying.
Sorry CJ, you are right. Context is everything. She did not. True.
clicknow is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-04-2019, 11:47 AM   #124
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,528
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj View Post
On my figures, her best race at 4 was a 127 and that came in her easy win at Churchill against completely overmatched foes. Her figures that year, earliest first:

116-119-127-118, average 120, median 118.5

As a 3yo, from the Oaks onward, she ran:

134-128-131-136-135, average 133, median 134

Yeah, I'm not buying that she was the same.
Beyer has her much faster at 3 also.

I'm saying two things.

1. She came back below her best (as the connection were saying) but was eventually close to her top form again.

2. The times were the times. However, imo some combination of the way the races developed on that track, on that day, given whatever the track speed actually was for "that race", lead to final times that I suspect were faster than the quality of the horses in the Preakness and Haskell.

So if you are a figure oriented handicapper and pull those figures down, you might get a somewhat different impression of what kind of figure range to expect from her in top form. Of course, that's like saying people have a slightly inflated view of Kobe Bryant relative to Michael Jordan.

I'm mostly looking at who she beat, by how much, with what relative trip, given how the track was playing that day etc... I don't think she was as bad at 4 as people think once she got rolling.

Even her final start was very good. She and Life At Ten opened up 14 lengths on the rest of field in their duel. Life at Ten was a very sharp improving Grade 1 winning mare and 2nd choice in the betting. Rachel totally buried her, opened a 3 1/2 length lead at the 1/8th pole, but the 10th furlong was too much. Life at Ten wound up beaten 11 1/4 lengths and earned a Beyer of 79 after Rachel torched her. She came right back and won the Grade 1 Beldame with a 100. She was very good at that time and Rachel killed her.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"

Last edited by classhandicapper; 06-04-2019 at 11:50 AM.
classhandicapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-04-2019, 03:18 PM   #125
Spalding No!
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by clicknow View Post
Unlike Arrogate, Justify, Rachel and all the other so called great horses who are over and done with as "teenagers", given the actual lifespan and physical development of horses, Zenyatta was on the race track running the BCC at the age of 6.

So lame, right, to retire at age 6???

I actually have no idea why we are even talking about horses who had "one brilliant year" on the track.

Isn't that like those bands that were one-hit wonders?

Lets talk about real race horses like Gun Runner. Beholder. etc. And also horses like Einstein, etc. who can actually run on any surface like a real racehorse should be able to do.


FLash in the pan win early precocious horses are going to the breeding shed and that's why smart people are going to south america and elsewhere for breeding stock. We already sold our stamina horses and shipped them off to other nations a long time ago. Pretty soon there won't be much left, but maybe at some point when their pocketbooks get hit the breeders will sit up and notice. Meanwhile, we can just count on NYRA to keep shortening race distances, and maybe nobody will notice. .
Of course, Zenyatta did not run at 2 or for the vast majority of her 3yo year.

Considering the contentious debate about the need and wastage associated with 2yo racing and the clear reality that horses mature and hit their peak beyond their sophomore year, one might even say Zenyatta was at a competitive advantage not having gone through the rigors of a juvenile campaign and the Triple Crown trail.
Spalding No! is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-04-2019, 07:06 PM   #126
depalma113
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by clicknow View Post
Unlike Arrogate, Justify, Rachel and all the other so called great horses who are over and done with as "teenagers", given the actual lifespan and physical development of horses, Zenyatta was on the race track running the BCC at the age of 6.

So lame, right, to retire at age 6???
She was retired after winning the synthetic Classic as a 5 year-old instead of going to the synthetic Dubai World Cup. Than they unretired her.

Last edited by depalma113; 06-04-2019 at 07:11 PM.
depalma113 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-06-2019, 02:31 AM   #127
clicknow
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
In retrospect, reading thru this topic after so many years have gone by that these 2 females raced, I can only say how much I ENJOYED them.

When a race horse is done, they are done, and they let you know it. And with the females, it seems even more obvious, like they just know when "it's time".

I got arthritis at an early age, that doesn't make me "lesser" than my friends who can still play raquetball.

Unfortunately too many horses are retired early to the breeding shed because the $$ is better and more long lasting, and that is not something that either one of these girls was guilty of.

So hail to them both.
clicknow is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.