The Greatest of All Time - Bob Baffert

[foregoforever]

Originally Posted by taxicab

I think the 2nd split is a done deal.
Judging by the way Churchill is acting.........they have Baffert 8 ways to Sunday.

That would explain what's been puzzling me about all this. I thought that, in the murky world of horseracing regulation, nothing really starts happening until the split sample is analyzed and the positive confirmed.

Yet CD has taken action already, and TSG is talking about it as well. For them to take action without a confirmed positive would be odd from a legal standpoint, especially with all the procedural issues that Baffert's lawyers raised in the Arkansas case.

Please explain. Is there a lawyer in the house?

[mlyles1]

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[Andy Asaro]

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[Andy Asaro]

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[GMB@BP]

The real question is how dumb is Baffert and his team?

The tightest security race in the US, a very watchful eye on his team after the Oaks debacle last year............and he goes ahead and dopes the horse in the race that you know you are going to get tested.

Man, there is stupid, and then there is this guy.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by foregoforever

That would explain what's been puzzling me about all this. I thought that, in the murky world of horseracing regulation, nothing really starts happening until the split sample is analyzed and the positive confirmed.

Yet CD has taken action already, and TSG is talking about it as well. For them to take action without a confirmed positive would be odd from a legal standpoint, especially with all the procedural issues that Baffert's lawyers raised in the Arkansas case.

Please explain. Is there a lawyer in the house?

If the split sample doesn't confirm anything, they can't suspend his license or DQ the horse.

CD can still rule Baffert off the grounds, even without a confirmed test. The only limitation on that was the one imposed by the San Diego Superior Court, where Del mar had an arbitration agreement in its stall space agreement and had to follow the agreement and arbitrate its dispute with Jerry Hollendorfer. But assuming there is no such arbitration clause at Churchill, their power to rule trainers off the grounds is basically unlimited.

If the split sample comes back positive over the threshold, he is completely at the mercy of the Kentucky officials.

As for Arkansas, the racing commission there was EXTREMELY CAREFUL not to actually find that Baffert had any procedural rights at all. All they did was reduce the punishment as a matter of discretion, based on the testimony given.

There are very few rights in these proceedings. There's no federal constitutional due process protection at all, except that they have to give you notice and a hearing, promptly AFTER suspending your license. That's it. Some states' laws give more protection, but all of the states give very broad discretion to the racing commission. If the racing commission decides to disqualify a horse or suspend a license, that decision is given extreme deference and cannot be overturned if it is supported by any substantial evidence.

So if Churchill rules Baffert off the grounds, he's off the grounds. If the KHRC
(or the Churchill stewards, acting on their behalf) disqualifies the horse, the horse is DQ'd. And if Baffert's license is suspended or revoked by the KHRC, that's going to stand up in court.

[Bigadam119]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

The real question is how dumb is Baffert and his team?

The tightest security race in the US, a very watchful eye on his team after the Oaks debacle last year............and he goes ahead and dopes the horse in the race that you know you are going to get tested.

Man, there is stupid, and then there is this guy.

I’m in 100% agreement with you here. This is “the” race and he is “the” guy. IMO for this situation to happen would mean that it is so rampant in the industry that even the biggest cheating conspiracy theories may be underestimating it.

My first reaction when I heard it this morning was that I’m done with racing. Both as a fan and player.

I’m obliviously still thinking it through because I really enjoy it, but this one hurts.

[Andy Asaro]

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[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

The real question is how dumb is Baffert and his team?

The tightest security race in the US, a very watchful eye on his team after the Oaks debacle last year............and he goes ahead and dopes the horse in the race that you know you are going to get tested.

Man, there is stupid, and then there is this guy.

Baffert might be smarter than you think. After all...he is an expert in raising "reasonable doubt".

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Baffert might be smarter than you think. After all...he is an expert in raising "reasonable doubt".

I wouldn't put it that way. He's certainly good at working the system, but that has nothing to do with "reasonable doubt". If horse racing simply exercised its powers with respect to Baffert, he'd have reached Rick Dutrow territory by now.

Few people have had luck challenging doping suspensions in court. Judges generally don't care that much about horse racing and think that doping a horse is awful, and the legal standards of review are extremely deferential to the decisions of racing commissions.

Where the Bafferts of the world work their magic is with racing commissions, not with courts. And it has nothing to do with "reasonable doubt"- he just exploits their general fecklessness, good old boy nature, and desire not to act against big players in the sport.

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I wouldn't put it that way. He's certainly good at working the system, but that has nothing to do with "reasonable doubt". If horse racing simply exercised its powers with respect to Baffert, he'd have reached Rick Dutrow territory by now.

Few people have had luck challenging doping suspensions in court. Judges generally don't care that much about horse racing and think that doping a horse is awful, and the legal standards of review are extremely deferential to the decisions of racing commissions.

Where the Bafferts of the world work their magic is with racing commissions, not with courts. And it has nothing to do with "reasonable doubt"- he just exploits their general fecklessness, good old boy nature, and desire not to act against big players in the sport.

Exactly

[The_Turf_Monster]

I would be surprised if Pimlico doesn’t let him run unless it wants a mess on its hands when Baffert eventually finds a way out of this one. Belmont and NYRA have a way of getting rid of this problem, see I’ll Have Another having a cute little retirement show the morning of the Belmont

[foregoforever]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

CD can still rule Baffert off the grounds, even without a confirmed test.

Thanks for the reply.

CD did not rule him off. They opted to "suspend Bob Baffert, the trainer of Medina Spirit, from entering any horses". I'm not sure where that falls between a rule-off and a normal suspension, but it seems closer to the latter.

Can you recall a case where a trainer was sanctioned, in any form, on the basis of a single, unconfirmed drug positive for a legal drug? (Note that CD's statement only referred to this incident, not any previous incidents).

As for the Preakness, Dancer's Image was allowed to run in it after his Derby positive.

As an aside, you have to feel sorry for TSG and the Maryland Jockey Club. The Laurel track is screwed up, and now they've decided to move all the horses (and barn cats) off-site to deal with a rodent problem. And now this gets dumped on them as well.

[cj]

Originally Posted by foregoforever

Thanks for the reply.

CD did not rule him off. They opted to "suspend Bob Baffert, the trainer of Medina Spirit, from entering any horses". I'm not sure where that falls between a rule-off and a normal suspension, but it seems closer to the latter.

Can you recall a case where a trainer was sanctioned, in any form, on the basis of a single, unconfirmed drug positive for a legal drug? (Note that CD's statement only referred to this incident, not any previous incidents).

As for the Preakness, Dancer's Image was allowed to run in it after his Derby positive.

As an aside, you have to feel sorry for TSG and the Maryland Jockey Club. The Laurel track is screwed up, and now they've decided to move all the horses (and barn cats) off-site to deal with a rodent problem. And now this gets dumped on them as well.

A normal suspension is followed by other jurisdictions. This is closer to a rule off in that he can run elsewhere (for now, at least), just not at Churchill. Maybe other CD owned tracks too, not sure on that one.

As for "single" violation, well not really. He just had a positive in the Oaks just eight months ago for the same exact drug.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

The real question is how dumb is Baffert and his team?

The tightest security race in the US, a very watchful eye on his team after the Oaks debacle last year............and he goes ahead and dopes the horse in the race that you know you are going to get tested.

Man, there is stupid, and then there is this guy.

The other way to look at that is somebody ELSE doped the horse. Say, one of those radicals from PETA.

A third way to look at it is that Baffert forgot to grease the RIGHT palm(s).

A fourth way to look at it is that the lab samples were analyzed by a lab owned and operated by Dr. Fauci, which would introduce a high degree of incompetence.

There's plenty of angles of possibilities here. Baffert being stupid seems less likely than others.