The Greatest of All Time - Bob Baffert

[pandy]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That's why I'm not 100% convinced this one single case isn't just incompetence. Only a moron, someone that subconsciously wants to get caught, or someone so ridiculously arrogant it borders on mental illness would inject his horse with this drug going into the Derby under the legal time limit hoping to get away with it. He doesn't strike me as any of those. He seems more like a guy that goes to the edge of legality hoping to gain an edge, but not a dumb crazy person.

If they caught him using something that previously used to go undetected because they now have enhanced testing, that would be a different story. That would make sense.

I don't think it matters because after his last positive, remember that he ranted about how he was hiring someone to keep a close eye on things and raising the level of competence in his barn, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He always says it's a mistake. You make one mistake, you get excused. You make 31 mistakes...

[pandy]

Originally Posted by Frost king

And if you believe nobody was taking some kind of edge, in any sport from the beginning of time, you are truly delusional. Cheating has become part of sport, it has become more sophisticated with time. All horse racing, from the very beginning has been dirty. Just accept it and carry on. To believe, that no one is cheating is being naive. The only difference between Baffert and anybody else, is that Baffert was sloppy and got caught.

Sure there are other cheaters, that doesn't mean that you let Baffert off. Most of the drug trainers have been claiming trainers. This guy wins the biggest races in the sport with doped-up horses that run suspiciously strong races.

There are many trainers who actually don't drug their horses. Look at the stats. Some famous trainers who've been doing this for decades have anywhere from zero to 2 positives. If a trainer is training for 30 years and has one minor positive for a legal substance, that's a lot different than 31 drug positives, the 7 dead horses in 16 months, the Justify positive and cover up, and being only the second trainer in the history of the Derby to get a positive.

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by pandy

Sure there are other cheaters, that doesn't mean that you let Baffert off. Most of the drug trainers have been claiming trainers. This guy wins the biggest races in the sport with doped-up horses that run suspiciously strong races.

There are many trainers who actually don't drug their horses. Look at the stats. Some famous trainers who've been doing this for decades have anywhere from zero to 2 positives. If a trainer is training for 30 years and has one minor positive for a legal substance, that's a lot different than 31 drug positives, the 7 dead horses in 16 months, the Justify positive and cover up, and being only the second trainer in the history of the Derby to get a positive.

Pandy, when people can't understand "why Baffert?" you're wasting your time. You've done great work on the subject. A few years ago I took a poll on twitter and think it was a few hundred, mostly gamblers and 75% thought he cheated. That number is more now. He may escape justice and that would mean that most of the other high profile cheaters will too. Sad situation

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

Pandy, when people can't understand "why Baffert?" you're wasting your time. You've done great work on the subject. A few years ago I took a poll on twitter and think it was a few hundred, mostly gamblers and 75% thought he cheated. That number is more now. He may escape justice and that would mean that most of the other high profile cheaters will too. Sad situation

Also, the highest profile cases are the most important cases to get right, because that's when the outside world is watching.

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Also, the highest profile cases are the most important cases to get right, because that's when the outside world is watching.

Exactly. If he falls the other ones fall

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

Exactly. If he falls the other ones fall

Didn't Jerry Hollendorfer already fall a few years ago? What happened then?....

He's operating at Monmouth, that's what happened.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Didn't Jerry Hollendorfer already fall a few years ago? What happened then?....

He's operating at Monmouth, that's what happened.

I'm not sure that toppling a big pin topples the small ones like Andy said. But even if it doesn't, there's an importance to getting high profile cases right. Obviously, trying to protect Baffert with the whole world watching because his positive test came in the nation's biggest race would be a big black eye for the sport in a way that failing to enforce the rules in an ordinary race at Presque Isle would not be.

And beyond that, there's something to be said for the idea that while cheating is always bad, cheating on the biggest stage is worse. For instance, there were a lot of baseball players in the 1900's and 1910's who may have taken a payoff now and then, but fixing the World Series is worse. It's worse because everyone is watching; it's worse because it decides a championship; it's worse because there are sponsors and teams and publicity departments who have invested time and money in that event.

To bring it back to the current context, a trainer who tampers with the Kentucky Derby is letting down all the people who care about the Kentucky Derby: all those folks with the mint juleps in the infield, all the people who watch one horse race a year on television, everyone in the breeding industry which looks to Triple Crown race wins to fix breeding value, and yes, all the bettors who bet big money or small money on a 20 horse, fascinating handicapping puzzle every year. A trainer who does this is potentially injuring many more people than someone who tampers with an ordinary race.

So that makes it more important both that there be a punishment and that it be a stern one.

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I'm not sure that toppling a big pin topples the small ones like Andy said. But even if it doesn't, there's an importance to getting high profile cases right. Obviously, trying to protect Baffert with the whole world watching because his positive test came in the nation's biggest race would be a big black eye for the sport in a way that failing to enforce the rules in an ordinary race at Presque Isle would not be.

And beyond that, there's something to be said for the idea that while cheating is always bad, cheating on the biggest stage is worse. For instance, there were a lot of baseball players in the 1900's and 1910's who may have taken a payoff now and then, but fixing the World Series is worse. It's worse because everyone is watching; it's worse because it decides a championship; it's worse because there are sponsors and teams and publicity departments who have invested time and money in that event.

To bring it back to the current context, a trainer who tampers with the Kentucky Derby is letting down all the people who care about the Kentucky Derby: all those folks with the mint juleps in the infield, all the people who watch one horse race a year on television, everyone in the breeding industry which looks to Triple Crown race wins to fix breeding value, and yes, all the bettors who bet big money or small money on a 20 horse, fascinating handicapping puzzle every year. A trainer who does this is potentially injuring many more people than someone who tampers with an ordinary race.

So that makes it more important both that there be a punishment and that it be a stern one.

And none of them had at least seven horses die all of the same heart related issues

[porchy44]

"Nobody wants you to train for them, unless you have been "ruled off" two or three times".

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by porchy44

"Nobody wants you to train for them, unless you have been "ruled off" two or three times".

So...."them" are those despicable owners who hire only the most corruptible trainers and vets....

By all means, please continue....Tell us what the real skinny is...

[porchy44]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

So...."them" are those despicable owners who hire only the most corruptible trainers and vets....

By all means, please continue....Tell us what the real skinny is...

My take was that it was a dishonest guy trying to justify his being caught cheating.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by porchy44

My take was that it was a dishonest guy trying to justify his being caught cheating.

Nah, it was the trainer saying "You're too clean for that owner to stable his horses with you"....

[pandy]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I'm not sure that toppling a big pin topples the small ones like Andy said. But even if it doesn't, there's an importance to getting high profile cases right. Obviously, trying to protect Baffert with the whole world watching because his positive test came in the nation's biggest race would be a big black eye for the sport in a way that failing to enforce the rules in an ordinary race at Presque Isle would not be.

And beyond that, there's something to be said for the idea that while cheating is always bad, cheating on the biggest stage is worse. For instance, there were a lot of baseball players in the 1900's and 1910's who may have taken a payoff now and then, but fixing the World Series is worse. It's worse because everyone is watching; it's worse because it decides a championship; it's worse because there are sponsors and teams and publicity departments who have invested time and money in that event.

To bring it back to the current context, a trainer who tampers with the Kentucky Derby is letting down all the people who care about the Kentucky Derby: all those folks with the mint juleps in the infield, all the people who watch one horse race a year on television, everyone in the breeding industry which looks to Triple Crown race wins to fix breeding value, and yes, all the bettors who bet big money or small money on a 20 horse, fascinating handicapping puzzle every year. A trainer who does this is potentially injuring many more people than someone who tampers with an ordinary race.

So that makes it more important both that there be a punishment and that it be a stern one.

Also the breeding. You look at Justify, he fails a drug test in the Santa Anita Derby, they hide it from the public, then behind closed doors they change the drug rules to try and make it look less corrupt, then the horse wins the Triple Crown, retires after his 6th lifetime start, is syndicated for $60 million, and then they announce that he failed a drug test. Baffert's cheating could amount to tens of millions of dollars of what's essentially fraud, not only in stakes winnings, but in the breeding shed.

[pandy]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Didn't Jerry Hollendorfer already fall a few years ago? What happened then?....

He's operating at Monmouth, that's what happened.

Even if they get back in, punishment in the form of a long suspension, or in the Hollendorfer situation, being kicked out of a major circuit, often does serve a purpose. Hollendorfer's lifetime win percentage is 22.6%. This year he's winning at 10%.

This is something that often happens, a trainer is riding high and his horses are running suspiciously fast, then he gets a stiff fine and/or suspension and when he comes back, his horses run more like regular racehorses.

This is why the CHRB is complicit in whatever crimes Baffert's committed because they swept things under the rug and basically let him get away with it all of these years. And now the sport has this black eye.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by pandy

Even if they get back in, punishment in the form of a long suspension, or in the Hollendorfer situation, being kicked out of a major circuit, often does serve a purpose. Hollendorfer's lifetime win percentage is 22.6%. This year he's winning at 10%.

This is something that often happens, a trainer is riding high and his horses are running suspiciously fast, then he gets a stiff fine and/or suspension and when he comes back, his horses run more like regular racehorses.

This is why the CHRB is complicit in whatever crimes Baffert's committed because they swept things under the rug and basically let him get away with it all of these years. And now the sport has this black eye.

Jerry was running in 6 horses fields with Russell Baze on almost all of his stable for 20 years straight, his win % should have been higher. Baze retires, Bay Meadows closes and Cali owners are more scarce than ever....Let's be honest, Hollendorfer has had to re-start from scratch, move to the East Coast and convince owners he's still a HOF'er....I'm pulling for him.