Rick Dutrow - Time served is enough

[Denny]

The last time I posted a comment in favor of Dale Roman's petition to have Mr Dutrow's suspension reduced to time served, I got a lot of flak and push-back from many of you here at PA.

Maybe some of you will reconsider your hard-line positions after reading the following:

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/On-T...s-license-rei/

Denny

[PaceAdvantage]

And here I thought the following claim was blown to smithereens on another recent thread about Dutrow:

• No horse trained by Dutrow suffered a fatal breakdown at a New York track, either racing or in training, for 11 consecutive years.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true...as are a lot of other people...but whatever.

I agree he should be reinstated.

[Denny]

PA,
That was the same thread where I posted before. Someone else, can't remember who right now, posted a link to Mr Pricci's previous work on the subject as well. Along with someone else's article.

I don't know personally about the 11 year stretch. Maybe it was during one particular stretch of Dutrow's career.
But, JP is a well respected turf writer who has been covering the sport for more than 40 years.

I'll take his word for it.

And besides, why focus just on that. There's so much more to the story. Did you read it?

[Tom]

Sure, let all the cheaters back in.
Why should we have any concern for the integrity of the game?

Maybe the whales will eat him.

[Denny]

Tom, you were the one I most had in mind. Have you bothered to look at the facts? Or is your mind made up without even reading the article?

I'll stay out of it and let the rest of you have your say and decide for yourselves what's right.

[Tom]

He cheated more than once.
ANYONE who cheats more than once should be out for at LEAST 10 years.

I don't need to read any articles.

We need him back in racing like we needed a second thread on it.

****
OK, I just read it.
Nothing there.
He is a multiple cheater.
NOTHING in that article changes that.

[Denny]

Not even the 1900+ signatures and counting on the petition, Tom?
Or the things that weren't brought up before?

At least you read it and give you credit for that much. Though don't agree.

I hope others here can give it a read.

You guys are right about one thing, I didn't need to start a new thread.
I could have added to the previous one if I knew where it was or who started it.
My bad.

If you can name another trainer that was railroaded like Dutrow and given that kind of suspension... I'd be interested in knowing.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Denny

But, JP is a well respected turf writer

He is?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Denny

And besides, why focus just on that. There's so much more to the story. Did you read it?

Yeah I wasted my time reading it.

And I focused just on that because we've already rehashed everything else to death in the other thread.

Who cares how many trainers signed a petition. Haven't most of the signers been busted a few times themselves? Shocking they would want to give clemency to one of their own.

But like I've already said a million times, I actually agree with you he should be let back in, but maybe not for the same reasons as you.

[slewis]

I haven't posted on PA for probably 5 or 6 years, but every so often I'll go to the site for a laugh.
It's fun to see the same grumpy old men arguing over the same issues with the usual characters taking shots at each other.
But when I saw this thread about Rick, I had to jump in.
For those who don't know or remember, I had horses I managed with Rick (and Mott and Pletcher and Chad and Tagg, etc).
Everyone is missing the point with Rick Dutrow's ten year suspension.
Everyone who is not directly involved in this sport (like most on PA) and even some who post here who are, need to understand the following:
The people who really run this sport, the elite, wealthy and influential owners, WILL NEVER GIVE UP THE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THIS INDUSTRY. It is THEIR PLAYGROUND. The main function most other owners serve is to have horses that are like sparring partners for these elite owners horses to beat up on.
The only function the gamblers serve is to help alleviate some of the enormous bills it costs to run even a small racing operation.
They could care less about any of you and how much you lose or if a cheating trainers horse beats you in a trifecta.
That being said:
If you want to stop (some) cheating, they must allow law enforcement to directly get results of drug testing and let THEM make the decisions on prosecution and penalty.
Secondly, these law enforcement entities cannot be influenced or play favorites with those influential and elite owners and members of the board of directors of any racetracks (see Rusty Arnolds and Graham Motion's recent reversals). This too will never happen since anyone wealthy and influential can make a call and open their checkbook to make things go away.
Until that day comes (and, duh, it never will) everyone is at the mercy of racetrack management who is at the mercy of the wealthy and elite who are the stakeholders in this sport.
So lets see how smart some of the grumpy old men are, who think that what happened to Dutrow was justified.
Test results go to racing management, and they decide who gets suspended (and who gets swept under the rug) and racing management is in the pockets of the wealthy and elite owners (and board of directors).
Rick Dutrow was routinely beating their million dollar stock and blueblood trainers and yes, he had some positives. But I guarantee you no more and MORE IMPORTANTLY no more serious than Asmussen, Pletcher and other major trainers in the game.
The difference is, Rick didn't train for major, well connected owners (Mike Dubb wasn't the force he is now when Rick went down).
So now I'll tell you something that may or may not come as a shock, but trust me, this is fact and anyone on here that knows me knows I don't bull shit so you can take this to the bank.
While Rick's case was ongoing, I was approached by a very prominent attorney and horse owner. This attorney, factually and routinely, gets trainers off when they come up with positives. He asked me how friendly I was with Rick. I told him not extremely friendly but I can call him anytime and he always took my calls. He told me to tell Rick to fire his lawyers, that his case had ALREADY been decided and he was getting 10 years no matter what defense his attorney(s) put forth. He told me to have Rick call him and hire him and that he'd have him back in under 4 years, probably closer to 3. True story.
The rest is history.
So now that I'm on this rant, I'm going to share a fun racing story.
Before I do, when everything went down with NYRA and the new Board of Directors was set up, wasn't there a rule that no board members could serve more than five years?
I'm curious how guys like Stuart Janney and Steven Duncker (I know Phipps is dead, praise the lord, I'd piss on his f-ing grave if I could) are still serving on the board?
I notice others too are still on the board, which leaves me into my story which epitomizes some of what I said above.
Probably 13 years ago, Duncker runs a New York Bred he owns and puts the horse in a $35K claimer. Now I know the horse had some issues up front, Stevie Wonder might have been able to pick up on that, but he was a turf horse and it was winter and he kept running him on the dirt which I felt was making the issue worse. I convinced a client to claim him telling him that we'll give him 90 days and bring him back on the turf when Belmont starts.
So on race day, I fill out the claim slip and drop it in the claim box. Mike Lakow, the ------- racing secretary at that time, saw me drop a slip. The guy hates me. F-him. I hate him too. While the race is going on, he opens the box and looks at the slip and proceeds to tell me and my trainer that he's voiding the claim because he doesn't recognize my signature and it won't match the signature on file as agent. CLAIM IS VOID.
They had to restrain me from jumping over the desk and beating his ass, but I noticed the horse didn't run well and finished next to last. I stormed out of the racing office.
The next day, the stewards call me and tell me that I HAVE to take the horse and that they were reversing Lakow's decision.
I laughed and told them "NO F--ing way". I said "I don't know what they did to that horse last night. You guys voided the claim, we have NO DEAL". They called me three times throughout the morning telling me I HAD to take the horse.
Then a friend calls me who tells me word is around that that horse was lame and it's a good thing I didn't claim him.
This is the type of shit that goes on in the racing game and honestly, I don't miss it one bit.
After going to the races every single day for almost 15 years, the only thing I do now is advising on some breeding and buying a few babies for new owners. This sport is a disgrace and those that run it are trash.

[thaskalos]

I am certain that the horseplayers could collect MORE than 1,916 signatures in "less than a fortnight"...in support of the modernization of the game's antiquated money-processing equipment. Would that change anything?

[Afleet]

Originally Posted by slewis

I haven't posted on PA for probably 5 or 6 years, but every so often I'll go to the site for a laugh.
It's fun to see the same grumpy old men arguing over the same issues with the usual characters taking shots at each other.
But when I saw this thread about Rick, I had to jump in.
For those who don't know or remember, I had horses I managed with Rick (and Mott and Pletcher and Chad and Tagg, etc).
Everyone is missing the point with Rick Dutrow's ten year suspension.
Everyone who is not directly involved in this sport (like most on PA) and even some who post here who are, need to understand the following:
The people who really run this sport, the elite, wealthy and influential owners, WILL NEVER GIVE UP THE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THIS INDUSTRY. It is THEIR PLAYGROUND. The main function most other owners serve is to have horses that are like sparring partners for these elite owners horses to beat up on.
The only function the gamblers serve is to help alleviate some of the enormous bills it costs to run even a small racing operation.
They could care less about any of you and how much you lose or if a cheating trainers horse beats you in a trifecta.
That being said:
If you want to stop (some) cheating, they must allow law enforcement to directly get results of drug testing and let THEM make the decisions on prosecution and penalty.
Secondly, these law enforcement entities cannot be influenced or play favorites with those influential and elite owners and members of the board of directors of any racetracks (see Rusty Arnolds and Graham Motion's recent reversals). This too will never happen since anyone wealthy and influential can make a call and open their checkbook to make things go away.
Until that day comes (and, duh, it never will) everyone is at the mercy of racetrack management who is at the mercy of the wealthy and elite who are the stakeholders in this sport.
So lets see how smart some of the grumpy old men are, who think that what happened to Dutrow was justified.
Test results go to racing management, and they decide who gets suspended (and who gets swept under the rug) and racing management is in the pockets of the wealthy and elite owners (and board of directors).
Rick Dutrow was routinely beating their million dollar stock and blueblood trainers and yes, he had some positives. But I guarantee you no more and MORE IMPORTANTLY no more serious than Asmussen, Pletcher and other major trainers in the game.
The difference is, Rick didn't train for major, well connected owners (Mike Dubb wasn't the force he is now when Rick went down).
So now I'll tell you something that may or may not come as a shock, but trust me, this is fact and anyone on here that knows me knows I don't bull shit so you can take this to the bank.
While Rick's case was ongoing, I was approached by a very prominent attorney and horse owner. This attorney, factually and routinely, gets trainers off when they come up with positives. He asked me how friendly I was with Rick. I told him not extremely friendly but I can call him anytime and he always took my calls. He told me to tell Rick to fire his lawyers, that his case had ALREADY been decided and he was getting 10 years no matter what defense his attorney(s) put forth. He told me to have Rick call him and hire him and that he'd have him back in under 4 years, probably closer to 3. True story.
The rest is history.
So now that I'm on this rant, I'm going to share a fun racing story.
Before I do, when everything went down with NYRA and the new Board of Directors was set up, wasn't there a rule that no board members could serve more than five years?
I'm curious how guys like Stuart Janney and Steven Duncker (I know Phipps is dead, praise the lord, I'd piss on his f-ing grave if I could) are still serving on the board?
I notice others too are still on the board, which leaves me into my story which epitomizes some of what I said above.
Probably 13 years ago, Duncker runs a New York Bred he owns and puts the horse in a $35K claimer. Now I know the horse had some issues up front, Stevie Wonder might have been able to pick up on that, but he was a turf horse and it was winter and he kept running him on the dirt which I felt was making the issue worse. I convinced a client to claim him telling him that we'll give him 90 days and bring him back on the turf when Belmont starts.
So on race day, I fill out the claim slip and drop it in the claim box. Mike Lakow, the drunken racing secretary at that time, saw me drop a slip. The guy hates me. F-him. I hate him too. While the race is going on, he opens the box and looks at the slip and proceeds to tell me and my trainer that he's voiding the claim because he doesn't recognize my signature and it won't match the signature on file as agent. CLAIM IS VOID.
They had to restrain me from jumping over the desk and beating his ass, but I noticed the horse didn't run well and finished next to last. I stormed out of the racing office.
The next day, the stewards call me and tell me that I HAVE to take the horse and that they were reversing Lakow's decision.
I laughed and told them "NO F--ing way". I said "I don't know what they did to that horse last night. You guys voided the claim, we have NO DEAL". They called me three times throughout the morning telling me I HAD to take the horse.
Then a friend calls me who tells me word is around that that horse was lame and it's a good thing I didn't claim him.
This is the type of shit that goes on in the racing game and honestly, I don't miss it one bit.
After going to the races every single day for almost 15 years, the only thing I do now is advising on some breeding and buying a few babies for new owners. This sport is a disgrace and those that run it are trash.

This is probably the best post I have ever read here. Please post more. I may have changed my mind about Dutrow-didn't think that would have been possible before.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by slewis

I haven't posted on PA for probably 5 or 6 years, but every so often I'll go to the site for a laugh.
It's fun to see the same grumpy old men arguing over the same issues with the usual characters taking shots at each other.
But when I saw this thread about Rick, I had to jump in.
For those who don't know or remember, I had horses I managed with Rick (and Mott and Pletcher and Chad and Tagg, etc).
Everyone is missing the point with Rick Dutrow's ten year suspension.
Everyone who is not directly involved in this sport (like most on PA) and even some who post here who are, need to understand the following:
The people who really run this sport, the elite, wealthy and influential owners, WILL NEVER GIVE UP THE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THIS INDUSTRY. It is THEIR PLAYGROUND. The main function most other owners serve is to have horses that are like sparring partners for these elite owners horses to beat up on.
The only function the gamblers serve is to help alleviate some of the enormous bills it costs to run even a small racing operation.
They could care less about any of you and how much you lose or if a cheating trainers horse beats you in a trifecta.
That being said:
If you want to stop (some) cheating, they must allow law enforcement to directly get results of drug testing and let THEM make the decisions on prosecution and penalty.
Secondly, these law enforcement entities cannot be influenced or play favorites with those influential and elite owners and members of the board of directors of any racetracks (see Rusty Arnolds and Graham Motion's recent reversals). This too will never happen since anyone wealthy and influential can make a call and open their checkbook to make things go away.
Until that day comes (and, duh, it never will) everyone is at the mercy of racetrack management who is at the mercy of the wealthy and elite who are the stakeholders in this sport.
So lets see how smart some of the grumpy old men are, who think that what happened to Dutrow was justified.
Test results go to racing management, and they decide who gets suspended (and who gets swept under the rug) and racing management is in the pockets of the wealthy and elite owners (and board of directors).
Rick Dutrow was routinely beating their million dollar stock and blueblood trainers and yes, he had some positives. But I guarantee you no more and MORE IMPORTANTLY no more serious than Asmussen, Pletcher and other major trainers in the game.
The difference is, Rick didn't train for major, well connected owners (Mike Dubb wasn't the force he is now when Rick went down).
So now I'll tell you something that may or may not come as a shock, but trust me, this is fact and anyone on here that knows me knows I don't bull shit so you can take this to the bank.
While Rick's case was ongoing, I was approached by a very prominent attorney and horse owner. This attorney, factually and routinely, gets trainers off when they come up with positives. He asked me how friendly I was with Rick. I told him not extremely friendly but I can call him anytime and he always took my calls. He told me to tell Rick to fire his lawyers, that his case had ALREADY been decided and he was getting 10 years no matter what defense his attorney(s) put forth. He told me to have Rick call him and hire him and that he'd have him back in under 4 years, probably closer to 3. True story.
The rest is history.
So now that I'm on this rant, I'm going to share a fun racing story.
Before I do, when everything went down with NYRA and the new Board of Directors was set up, wasn't there a rule that no board members could serve more than five years?
I'm curious how guys like Stuart Janney and Steven Duncker (I know Phipps is dead, praise the lord, I'd piss on his f-ing grave if I could) are still serving on the board?
I notice others too are still on the board, which leaves me into my story which epitomizes some of what I said above.
Probably 13 years ago, Duncker runs a New York Bred he owns and puts the horse in a $35K claimer. Now I know the horse had some issues up front, Stevie Wonder might have been able to pick up on that, but he was a turf horse and it was winter and he kept running him on the dirt which I felt was making the issue worse. I convinced a client to claim him telling him that we'll give him 90 days and bring him back on the turf when Belmont starts.
So on race day, I fill out the claim slip and drop it in the claim box. Mike Lakow, the ------- racing secretary at that time, saw me drop a slip. The guy hates me. F-him. I hate him too. While the race is going on, he opens the box and looks at the slip and proceeds to tell me and my trainer that he's voiding the claim because he doesn't recognize my signature and it won't match the signature on file as agent. CLAIM IS VOID.
They had to restrain me from jumping over the desk and beating his ass, but I noticed the horse didn't run well and finished next to last. I stormed out of the racing office.
The next day, the stewards call me and tell me that I HAVE to take the horse and that they were reversing Lakow's decision.
I laughed and told them "NO F--ing way". I said "I don't know what they did to that horse last night. You guys voided the claim, we have NO DEAL". They called me three times throughout the morning telling me I HAD to take the horse.
Then a friend calls me who tells me word is around that that horse was lame and it's a good thing I didn't claim him.
This is the type of shit that goes on in the racing game and honestly, I don't miss it one bit.
After going to the races every single day for almost 15 years, the only thing I do now is advising on some breeding and buying a few babies for new owners. This sport is a disgrace and those that run it are trash.

And you think that letting Dutrow back in the game will IMPROVE things?

[JustRalph]

How about all those folks who bred to Big Brown? He’s a failure at stud..........you think they want to let Dutrow back.....?

[slewis]

What I made clear is that Rick was never caught with any kind of "super-chemical" or positives that would move horses up 10 lengths.
Look at what Biancone had. Snake venom. A drop will kill any pain a horse feels and their natural protections taken away. This puts Jockey and rider in danger (as well as other Jockeys and horses).
I saw Biancone down in Ocala last month and I wanted to puke.
Do things the right way. Define the punishments.
At what positive did Rick go from 60 days to 5 years?
I'll tell you when. Go google Ed Martin. This piece of shit has had it out for Rick for a decade and he was hell bent at ending his career for a decade.
But Asmussen and Pletcher who routinely have attorneys get them off, train on.
I also made it clear that the way the sport is structured, THEY DON'T WANT TO CLEAN IT UP!