TVG..Disgraceful

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Come on...you can't be serious. If a player can't wager a grand total of $10 over an entire card...he doesn't need past performances. He has already given up the game...whether he knows it or not.

I'm with you (Excluding complete beginners)

[pandy]

It depends how you look at it. I often purchased the $5.99 unlimited for the day and bet the minimum of $10. Now the minimum is $25. I bet every day so that would mean that if I bought the unlimited every day of the year I would have to wager $8800 through PABETS. That's just too much money for me to bet through an ADW that offers no rebates. I'd rather bet that $8800 through Amwager or one of the others that have rebates. I made a complete withdrawal today.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by pandy

It depends how you look at it. I often purchased the $5.99 unlimited for the day and bet the minimum of $10. Now the minimum is $25. I bet every day so that would mean that if I bought the unlimited every day of the year I would have to wager $8800 through PABETS. That's just too much money for me to bet through an ADW that offers no rebates. I'd rather bet that $8800 through Amwager or one of the others that have rebates. I made a complete withdrawal today.

If I were an expert every-day player, like you...then I would bet the $25 a day with TVG, just to secure the PPs that I need. I mean...let's break it down. A $25 wager per day at TVG gets you the whole day's PPs for free. How much of a "rebate" does the same $25 wager get you at Amwager?

[cj]

Obviously I work for TimeformUS, so feel free to take that into account. TVG has to pay for the PPs people use. They aren't free from us. What does TVG get from a $2 bet on average? I'm guessing 10 to 15 cents?

The TimeformUS access offers a lot more than what BRIS does, the PDF file. Last I checked that hadn't changed. Why should TVG give a person premium, live PPs for 15 cents that they are charged much more for? I don't know what the rate is but I'm sure it isn't 15 cents or anything close to that.

Don't get me wrong, I wish they'd keep up the $2 bet thing. It is better for me personally, but I can't knock them for the change. Too many people were probably taking advantage of it while making the majority of their bets elsewhere.

[Tom]

Let's be serious here.
BRIS figs vs TFUS figs????

TFUS is the T-Bone STeak.
BRIS is the bone.

[pandy]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If I were an expert every-day player, like you...then I would bet the $25 a day with TVG, just to secure the PPs that I need. I mean...let's break it down. A $25 wager per day at TVG gets you the whole day's PPs for free. How much of a "rebate" does the same $25 wager get you at Amwager?

It's certainly not a bad deal if you rely on the Timeform pps, which are good. I rely mainly on bris, my brain must be hardwired for the old drf style pps.

By the way, for anyone who uses the Timeform pps, in my opinion, the best feature, by far, is the early/late pace figures. In my Power Pace Handicapping book I donated a chapter on how to use those figures the same way I use my Power Pace figures. The Timeform early/late pace figures are potent if used properly.

[Murph]

Originally Posted by NorCalGreg

You're forgetting that many in our dwindling ranks are retirees...playing a $4 double on weekends may be their entire entertainment budget.

The $2 bettor was once the backbone of this industry---now "this industry" wishes they would just go away.

The resident guru's don't care about guys like me anymore than track management. They look down their nose at the limited budgets and are almost offended when a small bettor can eke out an occasional winner.

I think the real reason to want the "poor, old buggers" out is that might make it easier for some of the "big hitter sharks" to win more money. They don't have long to wait for us all to be gone.

"If I can't bet $10 I don't deserve free PPs" ?!? / F - U

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Murph

The resident guru's don't care about guys like me anymore than track management. They look down their nose at the limited budgets and are almost offended when a small bettor can eke out an occasional winner.

I think the real reason to want the "poor, old buggers" out is that might make it easier for some of the "big hitter sharks" to win more money. They don't have long to wait for us all to be gone.

"If I can't bet $10 I don't deserve free PPs" ?!? / F - U

F - ME?

Look, Murph:

If it's beyond your means to wager a total of $10 on an entire racing card...then, you are the least of my concerns in this game. IMO...you are ALREADY "gone".

[pandy]

Originally Posted by Murph

The resident guru's don't care about guys like me anymore than track management. They look down their nose at the limited budgets and are almost offended when a small bettor can eke out an occasional winner.

I think the real reason to want the "poor, old buggers" out is that might make it easier for some of the "big hitter sharks" to win more money. They don't have long to wait for us all to be gone.

"If I can't bet $10 I don't deserve free PPs" ?!? / F - U

I don't think there's a prejudice against smaller bettors. There are a lot of tracks that would love to have an extra 50,000 to 100,000 players who bet $10 a day. It's simply a business decision and it makes sense. There are four online past performance companies, and there's no way that they can make a good profit just by selling past performances. Probably most people who purchase the Timeform pps were betting at other ADW's, so this is a way to at least get some extra money bet through their own online racebook. A better way would be to offer free pps, and, competitive rebates. Then they'd really get the handle up.

Funny how the racing industry still hasn't figured this out. There are two driving forces to handle, full, competitive fields, and low takeout (or big rebates). I just got rebates back about a month ago and since then I've bet almost ten times more than I did the prior month.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by pandy

I don't think there's a prejudice against smaller bettors. There are a lot of tracks that would love to have an extra 50,000 to 100,000 players who bet $10 a day. It's simply a business decision and it makes sense. There are four online past performance companies, and there's no way that they can make a good profit just by selling past performances. Probably most people who purchase the Timeform pps were betting at other ADW's, so this is a way to at least get some extra money bet through their own online racebook. A better way would be to offer free pps, and, competitive rebates. Then they'd really get the handle up.

Funny how the racing industry still hasn't figured this out. There are two driving forces to handle, full, competitive fields, and low takeout (or big rebates). I just got rebates back about a month ago and since then I've bet almost ten times more than I did the prior month.

When we say "industry"...we imply that the enterprise is regulated by a unified governing body, which cares about what the future holds for the particular business. There is no such thing in horse racing. In this game, we have the horsemen on one side...whose only concern is to secure the biggest piece of the pie for themselves...regardless of what the future may bring. And on the other side, we have the track operators...who are just dying for the opportunity to shut down the horses...so they could be in the casino-business full-time.

In a business climate such as this, where greed is the only driving force...it's only natural that the ADWs would get a little greedy themselves...and reserve the "freebies" for their more active customers. It's the sign of the times. The notion that "the $2 bettor is the backbone of this industry" is a nice-sounding catch-phrase...but it has never been true. The $2 bettor was welcomed in the old days...because, although he bet next to nothing...he still contributed something in the way of parking, admission and concession-stand to the track coffers. Now that the grandstands at the track are empty...the tracks can do without the player who goes to the track with $10 in his pocket. And, evidently...the ADWs are starting to feel the same way. It wouldn't surprise me if the rest of the ADWs enact similar "free PP" wagering requirements in the near future.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Murph

The resident guru's don't care about guys like me anymore than track management. They look down their nose at the limited budgets and are almost offended when a small bettor can eke out an occasional winner.

I think the real reason to want the "poor, old buggers" out is that might make it easier for some of the "big hitter sharks" to win more money. They don't have long to wait for us all to be gone.

"If I can't bet $10 I don't deserve free PPs" ?!? / F - U

I don't know if I offended you Murph but please allow me to elaborate:

IMHO, if an experienced player downloads a card, expects free PPs AND can't churn $10 in handle on that card, then that is just sad.

Yes, I understand that people are on fixed incomes. Both my parents are. I give my mother supplemental income for her "entertainment". Even if your ADW has $20 in it and you're a $2 bettor, you can easily churn that $20 into $100 with any minimal success on a 9 race NYRA card. ($2 parlay, .10 supers, $1 ex boxes, .50 Tri's, $1 DD's etc.).

I would never mock someone who bets that way. I commend them for showing restraint within a budget. What I am saying is, I don't find a $10 handle requirement to be such a big requirement in exchange for free PPs. That's a $2 show bet on half the races!

[Murph]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

F - ME?

Look, Murph:

NO, not you personally, Thask. I (wrongly) took your comment out of context. I just feel like I deserve anything that is currently promoted by the tracks and ADW's. There is no room for any more price increase at the level I play.

One of the issues I face day after day is finding a play that is worth a $20 wager. I look every day and play almost as often. It feels like I'm tuning in an old UHF TV station. I spend more time adjusting the antenna than enjoying the programs. Every time I find a comfortable spot the picture gets fuzzy and I have to get up and adjust again.

If the price of PP information continues to increase on any level, I can only bet less. I've expressed my concerns with my current data provider. BTW - thanks for getting me all stirred up!

[MNslappy]

Originally Posted by Murph

One of the issues I face day after day is finding a play that is worth a $20 wager.

Exactly why this $10 minimum bothered me. I download cards all the time that don't end up having a single race I feel offers enough value to be worthy of betting. It's a lot easier to swallow throwing down $2 on a race in which I would normally pass, in order to at least cover the minimum, than having to bet $10 on a race I would normally pass, or $5 on two races I would normally pass, etc. It's not that I'm "too cheap" as someone here put it. Too selective? Maybe....

I just wish TVG could've come up with a happier medium than $10/card.

[pandy]

Originally Posted by MNslappy

Exactly why this $10 minimum bothered me. I download cards all the time that don't end up having a single race I feel offers enough value to be worthy of betting. It's a lot easier to swallow throwing down $2 on a race in which I would normally pass, in order to at least cover the minimum, than having to bet $10 on a race I would normally pass, or $5 on two races I would normally pass, etc. It's not that I'm "too cheap" as someone here put it. Too selective? Maybe....

I just wish TVG could've come up with a happier medium than $10/card.

Yep, that's the thing. I've gone through thousands of cards over the years without finding a single horse that I like on the card, I get where you're coming from.

[cj]

Originally Posted by pandy

Yep, that's the thing. I've gone through thousands of cards over the years without finding a single horse that I like on the card, I get where you're coming from.

I understand this. All I can say is that there is a monthly option for $69 a month, every track every day. That is $2.33 a day. If someone can't afford $2 a day for that amount of information, so be it. It is pretty tough to try to cater to people like that and still stay in business.