Free will is an illusion

[Cuffdaddy]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I'm not talking about Adam...I'm talking about us. We are "born sinners" and are asked to live a "perfect" earthly life, otherwise we have to face a "death penalty"...and all this because somebody ate a piece of fruit eons ago. And then you tell me that God is the "creator of logic".

God burdens us with a debt that isn't really our own, asks us for the impossible as restitution for this "sin"...and then has us praising him for absolving us of a "sin" that we were never directly responsible for to begin with.

It all sounds like a bad movie script by a deranged screenwriter.

You really paint a interesting story that is blatantly false to make your point.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Cuffdaddy

You really paint a interesting story that is blatantly false to make your point.

Educate me. What is blatantly false about what I wrote?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

When someone puts a gun to your head...your "free will" goes out the window. And that's what your biblical God has done.

Now that I have a little bit more time, I'm going to throw you a fast, breaking curve ball. So gird up the loins of your mind and try to waken the brain cells in your gray matter. You ready?

My premise earlier is that Adam had every incentive to obey God. But even more than this (as if this wasn't enough), Adam enjoyed a huge benefit none of his fallen posterity ever enjoyed. None. Not one of us ever enjoyed what Adam had when he came into the world. What was this benefit, you ask? LIFE! As in Spiritual Life.

Too many people, including, all too sadly, far too many Christians, overlook an eminently logical implication to this passage:

Gen 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die. "
NASB

Obviously, neither of our first parents died physically on the day they chose to disobey God. Therefore, the only death they could have suffered on this day was spiritual in nature. And scripture speaks quite often to this subject of spiritual death. We have more solid evidence that Adam came into this world as a being who was spiritually alive unto his Creator. Here is the text:

Gen 2:7
7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
NASB

We shouldn't understand this are referring to mere physical life. God breathed his life into Adam. Adam at the point of his creation was alive unto his Creator. He had the Creator's very life breath in him which animated him in the fullest sense of this word. However, when Adam chose to sin against God, then Adam, while retaining physical life, died spiritually, which means he became separated from his Creator.

And the third piece of evidence that strongly reinforces this argument is that we see how the effects of sin (spiritual death) manifested itself immediately after the Fall by carefully reading Gen 3:8-13. It manifested itself in a fear of God's wrath because they ran and hid from the Creator. It manifested itself in their shame and guilt. And it manifested itself in their self-righteousness because neither of our first parents assumed personal responsibility for their sin, but rather laid the blame for their acts of disobedience elsewhere (sound like an all too familiar syndrome)!?

I could go on and develop this argument considerably further but I want to keep this at a reasonable length. The only question that remains is what was this "life" that God breathed into Adam when he created him? It could only be the Holy Spirit -- the same Holy Spirit who breathes life into the New Covenant people of God the moment they are born again -- the moment they become a new creation. The Last Adam's perfect obedience -- even his obedience unto death on the Cross -- made it possible for God's chosen people to be made spiritually alive again. And we see this played out beautifully when the Second Person of the Godhead "breathed on them" (his disciples):

John 20:22
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NIV

Therefore, your theory about how our first parents had the proverbial deck stacked against them is the farthest thing from the truth! Adam, unlike us when we came into this world, came into it alive unto God -- in union with God, connected to his Creator, in fellowship with Him! Adam did not have a sin nature like all his posterity has had and still has.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Educate me. What is blatantly false about what I wrote?

Everything!

Have you never read: "Like Father, Like Son"?

[Cuffdaddy]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Educate me. What is blatantly false about what I wrote?

I will take the bait but realize you are most likely playing around, you are a deep thinker and eloquent wordsmith and I think you enjoy the back and forth. I am also very sympathetic to the tragic stories you have shared about your beautiful wife and how you also battled health issues and fought to stay living to care for your son.

Your statement that you are required to live a perfect life on earth is the opposite of what is taught and simply not true. All that is required is you accept Jesus into your heart and then let him deal with you how he sees fit. Any sin is washed away by his death on the cross and become a new vessel, that is called grace. The message is clear that it is faith first then works due to that faith, not the other way around.

Your story has made me think that in my life I have been fortunate to only suffer extreme grief by losing my parents in a car accident. They were in their late 70's and of course I was devastated and loved dearly but they lived a full life, cannot imagine losing what you did. I do not know if that has anything to do with your stance directly but I am sorry that it happened.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Now that I have a little bit more time, I'm going to throw you a fast, breaking curve ball. So gird up the loins of your mind and try to waken the brain cells in your gray matter. You ready?

My premise earlier is that Adam had every incentive to obey God. But even more than this (as if this wasn't enough), Adam enjoyed a huge benefit none of his fallen posterity ever enjoyed. None. Not one of us ever enjoyed what Adam had when he came into the world. What was this benefit, you ask? LIFE! As in Spiritual Life.

Too many people, including, all too sadly, far too many Christians, overlook an eminently logical implication to this passage:

Gen 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die. "
NASB

Obviously, neither of our first parents died physically on the day they chose to disobey God. Therefore, the only death they could have suffered on this day was spiritual in nature. And scripture speaks quite often to this subject of spiritual death. We have more solid evidence that Adam came into this world as a being who was spiritually alive unto his Creator. Here is the text:

Gen 2:7
7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
NASB

We shouldn't understand this are referring to mere physical life. God breathed his life into Adam. Adam at the point of his creation was alive unto his Creator. He had the Creator's very life breath in him which animated him in the fullest sense of this word. However, when Adam chose to sin against God, then Adam, while retaining physical life, died spiritually, which means he became separated from his Creator.

And the third piece of evidence that strongly reinforces this argument is that we see how the effects of sin (spiritual death) manifested itself immediately after the Fall by carefully reading Gen 3:8-13. It manifested itself in a fear of God's wrath because they ran and hid from the Creator. It manifested itself in their shame and guilt. And it manifested itself in their self-righteousness because neither of our first parents assumed personal responsibility for their sin, but rather laid the blame for their acts of disobedience elsewhere (sound like an all too familiar syndrome)!?

I could go on and develop this argument considerably further but I want to keep this at a reasonable length. The only question that remains is what was this "life" that God breathed into Adam when he created him? It could only be the Holy Spirit -- the same Holy Spirit who breathes life into the New Covenant people of God the moment they are born again -- the moment they become a new creation. The Last Adam's perfect obedience -- even his obedience unto death on the Cross -- made it possible for God's chosen people to be made spiritually alive again. And we see this played out beautifully when the Second Person of the Godhead "breathed on them" (his disciples):

John 20:22
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NIV

Therefore, your theory about how our first parents had the proverbial deck stacked against them is the farthest thing from the truth! Adam, unlike us when we came into this world, came into it alive unto God -- in union with God, connected to his Creator, in fellowship with Him! Adam did not have a sin nature like all his posterity has had and still has.

I said it before, and I'll say it again...I'm not talking about our first parents. WE are the ones that have had the deck stacked against us. Did you miss my prior post to you?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Cuffdaddy

I will take the bait but realize you are most likely playing around, you are a deep thinker and eloquent wordsmith and I think you enjoy the back and forth. I am also very sympathetic to the tragic stories you have shared about your beautiful wife and how you also battled health issues and fought to stay living to care for your son.

Your statement that you are required to live a perfect life on earth is the opposite of what is taught and simply not true. All that is required is you accept Jesus into your heart and then let him deal with you how he sees fit. Any sin is washed away by his death on the cross and become a new vessel, that is called grace. The message is clear that it is faith first then works due to that faith, not the other way around.

Your story has made me think that in my life I have been fortunate to only suffer extreme grief by losing my parents in a car accident. They were in their late 70's and of course I was devastated and loved dearly but they lived a full life, cannot imagine losing what you did. I do not know if that has anything to do with your stance directly but I am sorry that it happened.

If you think that we are not required to live a "perfect life" here on earth...then you haven't been paying full attention to what Boxcar has been preaching to us here over the last few years or so. This is exacty what scripture says, according to Boxcar.

PS...

Thank you for the kind remarks concerning me and my wife.

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Good to know that you have so much in common with Light. He, too, thinks scripture is a "barrage of drivel". In fact, to him, Jesus was an ignorant nincompoop totally unaware of the vast superiority of Eastern mysticism compared to God's Word.

And if God, who created logic, spoke incoherently , then how much more incoherent is man's words?

Have a nice evening, sir.

I never said that scripture was a barrage of drivel.

When asked a question you answer with a barrage of drivel to obscure the fact that you have no interest in actual discussion.

YOU turn the scriptures into a barrage of drivel.

But your response is typical.

[Cuffdaddy]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If you think that we are not required to live a "perfect life" here on earth...then you haven't been paying full attention to what Boxcar has been preaching to us here over the last few years or so. This is exacty what scripture says, according to Boxcar.

PS...

Thank you for the kind remarks concerning me and my wife.

I hear that loud and clear, it is too much theology and not enough grace/love and scripture does not teach that. I believe Boxcar means well but has a overly brainiac way of showing it.

I have said each time I comment on this subject that the message must be simple for it to reach everyone. Jesus can work with any open heart and we all have different gifts. You are a truly gifted writer and have a way of making your point easy to understand and can tell you are a caring soul.

You are very welcome!

[Cuffdaddy]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If you think that we are not required to live a "perfect life" here on earth...then you haven't been paying full attention to what Boxcar has been preaching to us here over the last few years or so. This is exacty what scripture says, according to Boxcar.

PS...

Thank you for the kind remarks concerning me and my wife.

Oh and I almost forgot a excellent handicapper of horses and sports that will destroy any and all challengers..wink wink

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Cuffdaddy

Oh and I almost forgot a excellent handicapper of horses and sports that will destroy any and all challengers..wink wink

You better believe it...

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Good to know that you have so much in common with Light. He, too, thinks scripture is a "barrage of drivel". In fact, to him, Jesus was an ignorant nincompoop totally unaware of the vast superiority of Eastern mysticism compared to God's Word.

I'm not taking the bait. There is no one who has that opinion of Jesus that I can imagine,no matter how low they are. But bravo to you for stooping lower than the low accusing me of that when you know I have cried deeply for the love Jesus has shown me. That there are not enough thanks I can give him in eternity.

Why do you do that? I guess jealousy and insecurity in your own position. I decided to give you the last word and did not expect to respond again in this thread.

I wouldn't lie about someone who loves Jesus as much as I do. You recently accused me of NOT fearing God as a "bad thing". In this case I would fear God if I was you. You are not only crossing me,you are crossing God and Jesus. Woe to you.

Hopefully you don't get any repercussion,but you are on thin ice when you use the lord for your egoic benefit especially when disparaging one of his lovers.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

I never said that scripture was a barrage of drivel.



YOU turn the scriptures into a barrage of drivel.

But your response is typical.

How do I turn the scriptures into a "barrage of drivel"? And why don't you show me -- why don't you teach me how to not do that? Show me how you use scripture.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

I'm not taking the bait. There is no one who has that opinion of Jesus that I can imagine,no matter how low they are. But bravo to you for stooping lower than the low accusing me of that when you know I have cried deeply for the love Jesus has shown me. That there are not enough thanks I can give him in eternity.

Why do you do that? I guess jealousy and insecurity in your own position. I decided to give you the last word and did not expect to respond again in this thread.

I wouldn't lie about someone who loves Jesus as much as I do. You recently accused me of NOT fearing God as a "bad thing". In this case I would fear God if I was you. You are not only crossing me,you are crossing God and Jesus. Woe to you.

Hopefully you don't get any repercussion,but you are on thin ice when you use the lord for your egoic benefit especially when disparaging one of his lovers.

Well, you did take the bait.

And yes, you do believe that about the scriptures. You have always held the scriptures in very low esteem. You don't recall all the disparaging things you have said about the bible in the past? Didn't you basically tell us that scriptures were written by evil men with religious agendas? That the scriptures can't be trusted? That the scriptures are loaded with errors?

And you have proved this time and time again because you believe virtually nothing that's in the bible. How many times have I asked you, "Why can't you ever believe your 'best friend'?" You even went so far once to try to refute Jesus' endorsement of HIS scriptures by telling us that he didn't mean words spoken verbally but that he meant revelation that came by "primordial
vibrations"!

You even insulted him once by saying that He was ignorant of the better ways of Eastern mysticism, and meditation and all that bunk -- and that's why he didn't teach that stuff in scripture. All that Far Eastern stuff was far too advanced for Jesus. But then I had to inconveniently remind you that Jesus spoke only the words given to him by his Father, so if you're going to insult the Son, then you'll have to also insult the Father since he, too, is omniscient -- with the Father never setting aside his divine prerogatives.

But not worry...it's all good. I have your number, Dave's and others here. You're just typical skeptics who always want it both ways. You will criticize a Christian for using the bible to support his views or arguments, and insult him the way Dave insulted me, etc. But then I would also be taken to task if I didn't use the scriptures to support views and I would be told that my personal opinion is no better than anyone else's. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Thanks for not taking bait, but taking it anyhow.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If you think that we are not required to live a "perfect life" here on earth...then you haven't been paying full attention to what Boxcar has been preaching to us here over the last few years or so. This is exacty what scripture says, according to Boxcar.

PS...

Thank you for the kind remarks concerning me and my wife.

Well...yeah...if God didn't require perfection in his image bearers, then what was the point of the Cross!?

The Gospel (the good news) is a profound paradox. The very, very bad news is that none of us are capable of achieving that perfection in this life. In fact, if it weren't for the Cross of Christ, we'd all be justly damned to hell -- because all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. But the really great news is Jesus lived the perfect, holy life we are required to live if we hope to see God,and he died the death we all deserve die because our life is so imperfect. So...Jesus is the substitute for all those who believe in him and repent of their sins.

The Gospel is so simple to believe, kids as young as 5, 6, 7 years old can understand it and embrace it!

One would think that the vast majority of people in this world would be tripping over themselves to enter the Kingdom of Heaven through genuine faith in Christ's gospel...but sadly the opposite is true! The vast majority of people freely choose, instead, to travel the broad path in this life that leads to destruction. Only a few find the narrow way that leads to life! Why is this? Well, at the terrible risk of another insult, permit to share a scripture text with you that will explain it.

John 3:19-21
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."
ESV