Free will is an illusion

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You converted! Mazel tov!

That's old news. Converted many moons ago. I'm a card-carryin' member of the Israel of God congregation (Gal 6:16).

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Thanks for the response. It's a systematic theology that interprets, from certain passages, some of which you cite, that Christ died only for the elect. We can all cite scripture, such as Christ dying for all men, universal salvation..
1 Tim 2:4 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved", Mt 18:14, the great commission to all nations Mt 28:19 , preach to whole creation Mk 16:15, Acts 10:34 "every nation", "every man's conscience" 2 Cor 4:2, "for the salvation of all men" Tit 2:11; prayers, etc. for all men, for kings (Nero at the time!) 1 Tim 2:1-2, 1 Jn 2:2 Christ is the "expiation...for the sins of the whole world", etc.

Proof texting seldom solves anything, as shown in the two devout Calvinists who came to different biblical opinions about fetal stem cell research, if you recall. Comes down to authority. Thanks for all the responses, and peace to you.

Au contraire! Proof texting solves everything because all scripture must be understood in its proper context. All the passages you cited above should be understood in the context of numerous other scriptures that restrict the application of the atonement; for quite often universal terms are used in a restrictive sense. A great of example of this can be seen Isaiah 53. "And the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (53:6 ) to only be restricted to many "my righteous servant will justify many and he will bear their iniquities" (53:11), and "he bore the sin of many" (53:12).

Another great example is one of your own passages that you cited above (Act 10:34). The text itself reads: "but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right". This is very clearly a qualified statement! Peter did not say that God accepts each and every person from every nation!

If 1Jn 2:2 (another of your cites) is saying that Christ is the atoning sacrifice "for the sins of the whole world" in the distributive sense, then surely you would have to apply your same hermeneutic to Jn 12:19 ("Look how the whole world has gone after him") as saying that each and every person in the entire world was seeking after Christ during his first advent!

Or was the faith of the Christians in Rome literally being reported to each and every person in the entire world (Rom 1:8)?

Or in Jesus' Mt. Olivet Discourse wherein he predicted the Fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, he told his disciples, "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" (Mat 24:34); and this included, "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world as a testimony to all nations and then the end will come" (24:14). But we know this could not mean that the gospel came to Europe, all Asia, all Africa, all North America, all South America, etc. before the Diaspora of 70 A.D. Therefore, this kind of text must be understood in the restricted sense of the "whole world" and "all nations" as meaning the nations that comprised the known Roman Empire. And of course this is precisely what happened as recorded in Acts! The gospel was spread throughout the Roman Empire.

Or did Paul and Silas literally cause trouble "all over the world", as they were accused (Act 17:6)?

Here's a short list of other limited applications: "blood of the covenant which is poured out for many" (Mat 26:8; "the grace of the one man...overflow to the many" (Rom 5:15); "Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many: (Heb 9:28); "because he will save his people from their sins" (Mat 1:21). "The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep: (Jn 10:11), but the text omits the goats! Yet, at the end of the age it is the sheep and the goats who will be separated out from all the nations and will be judged (Mat 25:32-33). Jesus purchased the church of God with his own blood (Act 20:28). And only the 144,000 (the Redeemed) were purchased from the earth (Rev. 14:3). "And with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe, language, people and nation (Rev 5:9).

One more thing then I'll end this. Jesus is the fulfillment of all the OT covenant promises, including the great Abrahamic Covenant. And I want to focus on one portion of that covenant:

Gen 17:4-5
4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.
NIV

And Paul explains:

Acts 3:25
25 "It is you who are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'
NASB

And again, Paul goes on to explain to the Galatians that the "seed" spoken of is Christ.

So...when God promised Abraham that he would make him the [spiritual] father of many nations (not even of all nations!), was God saying that Abraham would be the spiritual father of each and every person in those nations? Or was God really implying this in kernel form in Genesis 17:

Rom 4:11-12
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.?
NIV

Christ, therefore, no more purchased with his blood every man, woman in the child in every nook and cranny of this world any more than God made Abraham the spiritual father of every man, woman and child in this world.

The best to ya at the Keenland meet.

[thaskalos]

Boxcar...you have a mania for the unimportant.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Boxcar...you have a mania for the unimportant.

If you think it's "unimportant" that God has no love for you, as an unrepentant sinner, then I suppose you're right.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

If you think it's "unimportant" that God has no love for you, as an unrepentant sinner, then I suppose you're right.

God has as much "love" for me as I have for him. What could be fairer than that?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

God has as much "love" for me as I have for him. What could be fairer than that?

You won't think it's so fair on judgement day after he judges you and you come to find out that you can't return the favor.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You won't think it's so fair on judgement day after he judges you and you come to find out that you can't return the favor.

Judges me for what? Not following a bunch of ancient transcipts written by some anonymous nomads? You've got to be kidding me.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

If you think it's "unimportant" that God has no love for you, as an unrepentant sinner, then I suppose you're right.

I keep watching the convoluted religious debate between you and dnlgfnk...and I ask myself: "When did Christianity get so complicated? Didn't it all start with a carpenter's son preaching to a bunch of illiterate fishermen?"

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I keep watching the convoluted religious debate between you and dnlgfnk...and I ask myself: "When did Christianity get so complicated? Didn't it all start with a carpenter's son preaching to a bunch of illiterate fishermen?"

It's the world's hostility toward God, His Son and the Gospel that accounts for the complications. As often stated, even small children can understand the gospel.

[boxcar]

Okay...found that verse I was looking for the other day plus one other, so let me try to wind this up.

We have people on this forum who constantly claim that Jesus is their "best friend". Of course, that is easy for anyone to make that claim. But can such people also make the claim that they are Jesus' friend? Can they presume to speak for Him? If so, do they know the condition Jesus placed on his friendship with people?

John 15:14
14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
NIV

It appears Jesus is not the friend of the world -- the world that he supposedly died for.

Next, we have this passage which also qualifies God's love:

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV

I guess this text, too, blows away the feel good religious theory of God's universal love for all mankind.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

We have people on this forum who constantly claim that Jesus is their "best friend".

Really? Who else but me claims that, Mr. bait and switch.

I'll make it simple for you. The difference between you and I is that your awareness of God is purely words, words, words. Mine is Love.Love.Love.

If you were the highest recognized theologian on Christianity on the planet and wrote an Encyclopedia about it, your verbiage would not hold a candle to some kid in some poor remote village who never heard of Christianity nor the Bible that had 1 second of love in God's presence.

That 1 second of Love in Gods presence, trumps a lifetime of verbiage and Encyclopedias about God.

When you know God and Jesus through the heart, your words or any books words cannot hold a candle to them.

The Bible is good as an introduction to God for people oblivious to God and want to know more. But there is no substitution for the real thing.

Your diatribe with your philosophy friend was so boring. If I was someone who was in search of God I would say "screw that". Total turn off.

God is the most exciting, magical, and wonderful thing I never realized when I was in your gray world of "intellectualism" and institutionalizing guilt as a virtue.

Clearly you don't know God besides what's on paper. What good is that? You better hope that gets you into Heaven when on the other hand you are condemning people to hell as an imaginary ambassador to God. All this time forgetting what my "best friend" said about "Judge not lest ye be judged" .You don't know anything about anyone you speak so you should hold your tongue lest it be you who God teaches a fiery lesson to.

Furthermore, if you did experience 1 second of God's love, you would never talk that way about another human being. You wouldn't need external guidance from the Bible from 2000 years ago. You would have internal guidance in the here and now from my "best friend" and his Father.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Really? Who else but me claims that, Mr. bait and switch.

Oh...you noticed I was alluding to you. Good for you. You're not entirely basking in your stupor.

I'll make it simple for you. The difference between you and I is that your awareness of God is purely words, words, words. Mine is Love.Love.Love.

If you were the highest recognized theologian on Christianity on the planet and wrote an Encyclopedia about it, your verbiage would not hold a candle to some kid in some poor remote village who never heard of Christianity nor the Bible that had 1 second of love in God's presence.

That 1 second of Love in Gods presence, trumps a lifetime of verbiage and Encyclopedias about God.

When you know God and Jesus through the heart, your words or any books words cannot hold a candle to them.

The Bible is good as an introduction to God for people oblivious to God and want to know more. But there is no substitution for the real thing.

Your diatribe with your philosophy friend was so boring. If I was someone who was in search of God I would say "screw that". Total turn off.

God is the most exciting, magical, and wonderful thing I never realized when I was in your gray world of "intellectualism" and institutionalizing guilt as a virtue.

Clearly you don't know God besides what's on paper. What good is that? You better hope that gets you into Heaven when on the other hand you are condemning people to hell as an imaginary ambassador to God. All this time forgetting what my "best friend" said about "Judge not lest ye be judged" .You don't know anything about anyone you speak so you should hold your tongue lest it be you who God teaches a fiery lesson to.

Furthermore, if you did experience 1 second of God's love, you would never talk that way about another human being. You wouldn't need external guidance from the Bible from 2000 years ago. You would have internal guidance in the here and now from my "best friend" and his Father.

So, you can't be too enamored with Jesus' words either, right? I mean they're just words, right!?

As far as your "love, love, love" goes, Jesus said in real down to earth words that anyone who loves Him will keep his commandments. Anyone can claim they're full of love, but that doesn't mean that it's the kind of love as defined in the words of the bible.

And Jesus also said that his mother, brother, sisters, etc. were those who keep his words.

And his friends are those who keep his commands. So...the real question you should be asking yourself is, "Am I obeying my "best friend"? Because if you're not, you're not his friend at all! In fact, you're his enemy -- exactly like those in the parable of the Ten Minas (Lk 19:27). And you have already confessed once that you don't believe Jesus is King of the Kingdom of Heaven, which means you have no reason to obey him. Jesus is just another one of God's ho-hum prophets -- who probably bores you to death with all his words -- words that he received from his Father.

And for your info, the only way anyone can "know" God is by learning what his will is, what his character is, what he requires of people and what each of us really are, and why we need to accept God's offer of salvation. It's the combination of God's words and influence of the Holy Spirit that convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgment. It is only the Spirit and the Word that can radically transform our minds and hearts and make us fit for fellowship and communion with our Creator-Redeemer, and conform us to the image of Christ. Anything short of these means of grace will leave us short of God's glory. And you really don't want to die in that kind of state, especially since there are no words in all scripture that teach us that man is saved by his personal, subjective feelings or experiences. Just sayin'...

[boxcar]

Someone said yesterday, "words, words, words". Well, then, here are some more words, words, words for this mocker and complainer.

John 12:47-48
47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
ESV

What glorious words!

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Someone said yesterday, "words, words, words". Well, then, here are some more words, words, words for this mocker and complainer.

John 12:47-48
47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
ESV

What glorious words!

Jesus spoke in such a manner to his direct companions. It's one thing to believe the words of someone who is performing miracles right in front of you. But believing the hearsay about the same man 2,000 years hence is an entirely different matter.

[Dave Schwartz]

We have people on this forum who constantly claim that Jesus is their "best friend".

I'm your huckleberry.

Hand waving vehemently.