Free will is an illusion

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

"Are all the people of this world God's children?...For starters, there is not one shred of biblical evidence that would support an affirmative answer to either of the above questions. Not one shred!"

You're going to have to condition your foundational questions more carefully when you visit those churches. I understand you to mean man in a state of grace, but...Luke's genealogy traces Jesus to Adam, the "son of God" and by extension his sinful ancestors. That's the point of the genealogy (Lk 3:38) https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Lk3.38
In Acts 17:28-29, Paul cites the Stoics Aratus and Cleanthes to the Athenians,, i.e., "For we are indeed his offspring". Acknowledging Paul's Christianizing of the Stoics' verse, he yet continues his inclusive dialogue to the Athenians as being in fraternal relationship to them, in order to reach them; "Being then God's offspring, 'we' ought not..." https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Ac17.28

My, my, you're been a busy camper. I have stirred the sleeping giant to wakefulness.

Yes, it's natural that Adam be traced back to the Son of God because Adam's state prior to the Fall was one of a "living being". Adam was, prior to his sin, spiritually alive unto God by virtue of the Holy Spirit that was breathed into Adam by God at the time of his creation. But after the Fall, Adam's state changed. Adam died! That is to say, he died spiritually. And there is zero evidence that Adam was ever restored to God. (I believe I wrote on this topic several years ago and gave about a 12-point argument to support my position.) However, there is good biblical evidence that God reconciled Eve to himself.

Moreover, you seem to forget that Jesus taught that his Father is only the God of the [spiritually] living; and that He was not the God of the dead (Mat 22:32; Mk 12:27; Lk 20:38). Well, since God is not the God of the dead, then neither can he be God the Father of the spiritually dead.

Additionally, only born again believers are the children of God (Jn 1:12; Mat 12:48-50; Mk 3:33-35, etc.).

As far as the Acts 17:28-29 passage goes, this is in the context of Paul preaching the gospel to Greeks in Athens. Since they were very religious people, Paul seized upon the opportunity to use one of their own poets' sayings as a springboard for his gospel message to them. He agrees with what the poet said because there is a sense in which the poet was right! In a broad, generic, universal sense the entire human race is the "offspring" of God because all mankind uniquely bears God's image. We're all made in his image and likeness. You and I and everyone else are all part of the human family; therefore, as God's unique image bearers, we're all of one kind! We're all "related" to God in that sense and in that sense only! However, this doesn't mean that just because we're all members of the human family that there is a personal, intimate, loving, spiritual, familial relationship among all the members of the human family, or even more importantly between all members of the human family and their Creator! The Doctrine of Reconciliation makes this truth crystal clear!

Also, it's the gift of the Holy Spirit that unites a believer to the Father and the Son and makes him a member of the divine family. And only born again believers are bestowed that precious gift!

Finally, I would also remind you that from the very beginning -- right after the Fall -- God plainly said there would be two spiritual seeds running throughout mankind. We have the godly "seed of the woman" and the ungodly "seed of the serpent" (Gen 3:15). Don't you remember that Jesus told the Pharisees that their [spiritual] father was the devil -- that they belonged to him (Jn 8:44)!? How could it be that those Pharisees have two spiritual fathers!?

I'll stop here for now and tackle the rest of your post later. Gotta run.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

"Does God love all the people in this world unconditionally?...Not one shred"!

One aspect of divine love is willing the Good of the individual. Existence of the individual himself is an extension of Divine Goodness (Gen 1:31)... https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Ge1.31 ...If God did not love what he created and even now maintain its existence, it would be obliterated. This is also why "Total Depravity" is a mistaken concept. For it to be true, man's nature would have to morph into another nature, as a totally corrupt nature wouldn't be "man".

But it does not follow logically that God loves unconditionally, nor is it taught anywhere in scripture. In fact, if it were taught in scripture, it would contradict no small number of passages. I have already provided several qualified statements relative to God's love but here is a partial list of scriptures that explicitly teach that God "hates" both sin and the sinner (Ps 5:5-6; 10:3; 11:5; Jer 12:8; Dan 12:2; Hos 9:15; Nah 1:14, Rom 9:13 etc.)

God allowed the world to continue on after the Fall so that He could redeem a people for himself. This is stated in Gen 3:15 to the [one] seed of the woman as "he" -- alluding to the Messiah. I could just as well argue that God has loved his elect from all eternity and that this is why he has allowed the world to continue -- so that all his chosen ones -- every single last one of them -- will be brought into his kingdom. We shouldn't forget that the Creator/Redeemer manifests his "Divine Goodness" particularly toward those who love him and who have been [effectually] called according to his purpose (Rom 8:28-30). This goodness is manifested to his elect through his sovereign saving grace, whereas God's general goodness toward all men (in the distributive sense) is manifested through his common grace (Mat 5:45).

Also, God has allowed the fallen angels to exist even though their doom is sealed! And he has no intentions of ever redeeming them.

Lastly, the final nail in the coffin of your thesis is that we humans will always be human no matter our spiritual condition when we die! The redeemed in the next age will still be human even though the saints will have a very different kind of body after the resurrection of the living. Likewise, after the resurrection of the dead, all the eternally damned people will still be fully human for the duration of eternity in their final state of the second death in the lake of fire. Since the humanity of the damned will continue throughout eternity, then why can't those predestined for destruction exist for several millennia in this age?

In short, God has permitted good and evil (and all this entails) to exist side-by-side all these millennia so that he could manifest his infinite wisdom and love for his elect, while simultaneously manifesting to all mankind his justice for all eternity.

I'll finish up in my next post.

[boxcar]

There is not one recorded instance in scripture of any prophet, apostle or Christ himself calling sinners in either the Old or New Testaments to repentance and faith by telling them that God loves them. Not one"!

Huh? That's the point of the entire gospel where the narrative is didactic (Rom 5:8...https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Ro5.8 ... joined to Jn 3:16...https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Jn3.16)

Oh, no, no. Foul! What you're trying to do here is hardly exegitical! You're taking two unrelated passages and attempting to synthesize them in order to support your thesis.

And just as importantly, the two different passages you cite don't meet my criteria which specifically calls for any instance of gospel preaching that calls sinners to faith and repentance by telling these sinners that God also loves them.

Rom 5:8 is dealing with God's elect, i.e. us, we and us again. Paul does not have in view in this passage any and all sinners indiscriminately. Of course, God loved his elect from all eternity! This precious truth harmonizes quite nicely with all scripture.

As far as Jn 3:16 is concerned, this is a classic example of eisegesis, whereby you read into the passage something that is not only not in it, but would also present numerous contradictions with other passages which teach differently. This particular passage should be understood from the mindset of God's Old Covenant people -- the Jews! To a Jewish mind, there were only two kinds of people in this world: Us and Them, that is to say Jews (the chosen ones) and Gentiles (the rest of the nations!) This is precisely how the vast majority of Old Covenant Jews would have thought! And this thinking would have been entirely consistent with how God thought about his covenant people and the non-covenant people of the world. See, for example, Gen 12:2-3; Ps 2:8-9; Isa 49:6. And these three passages harmonize quite nicely with Rev 5:9. The "world" is the Jewish and Gentile nations which God loves -- but not in the sense of each and every person in those nations.

One last thought before moving on: With all the bad gospel presentations that sadly abound in today's church that tell people that God loves all sinners, one would reasonably think that the scriptures would contain at least two or three such examples that would support such bold declarations. But, again, I challenge you to find even one.

"The Father's love is also conditioned upon His Son's obedience"!

This is dreadful. In one act of eternal, omnipresent existence, God contemplates the idea of himself. Since the entirety of his divinity pours out into that thought, the thought is God, The Word (Jn 1:1...https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Jn1.1)[since we think in words], the Son. The Father loves the Word/Son, pouring out the entirety of his divinity into that love, so that the Love is God (Holy Spirit).
The Father loves the Son because with the Holy Spirit, God is Love (1 Jn 4:8 https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/1Jn4.8).
In that same John ch. 10, "I and the Father are One" (v.30...https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Jn10.30). The Son shares the same nature as the Father, i.e., divine nature. In his Incarnate human nature (Jn 1:14...https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Jn1.14 ) Christ embraced obedience to the will of the Father, which was by nature his own divine will- the embracing of the Cross as an act of divine love that man be restored to his original vocation of an adopted son through grace , co-heir with Christ (Rom 8:17...https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Ro8.17).

In no way does this advocate for universalism (versus the contingent aspect of God's will (Mt 7:21..https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Mt7.21), but neither does it reject the antecedent aspect of God's will (1 Tim 2:4... https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/1Ti2.4).

[/quote] (emphasis mine)

"Dreadful", you say? Perhaps at first blush. But to a pious Jew, with a good working knowledge of the OT scriptures, Jesus' words would not only have rang true, but would have been very comforting and reassuring that Jesus was truly the Holy One of Israel -- the promised Messiah! To this kind of Jew, Jesus' words in Jn 10:17 would inspire genuine faith in and love for the Messiah because what Jesus said comports so well with numerous OT scriptures. "The reason my Father loves me" -- right here and now -- in my God-incarnate form -- as the God-Man -- is because I obey him. I was sent here to this dark, forlorn world, in time and space, to perform my Father's will. To execute his redemptive plan for his chosen people. Let's think about this for a few moments.

Scripture teaches that Jesus is the [morally] spotless Lamb of God, without any [moral] blemish. Jesus knew no sin! There was never a time here on earth that Jesus even remotely entertained the thought of sin. And we know from scripture that God hates sin, c.f. Prov 6:16-19). He hates sin because it is antithetical to his holy character -- in fact to his thrice holy nature (Isa 6:3; Rev 6:8)! Holiness being the most exalted of all of God's attributes. God's holiness governs all that he is.

And as we saw yesterday, God must hate every unrepentant sinner because sin itself resides in the heart of every such sinner. All men are sinners by nature. In fact, I'll go even further and say that God cannot love any sinner, apart from the holy character of his Son and his atoning work on the Cross. God's love for any sinner, therefore, is based entirely on the merits of Christ! This is why God can love only those whom he predestined in eternity to be in Christ. This is precisely why so many scriptures qualify God's love (for the righteous, blameless, God-fearers, etc., while others explicitly state his hatred for unrepentant sinners -- because all such sinners are outside of Christ -- outside of a personal covenant relationship with God! God's Word is totally consistent with itself!

So...to a pious, God-fearing Jew, Jesus' words in John 10 would have been very comforting and reassuring because Jesus was affirming numerous OT scriptures about who God loves and who and what he hates. Jesus was reassuring his listeners that his Father loved him because he resolved to do his Father's will. That teaching would have soundly resonated with any pious, God-fearing, upright Jew.

Finally, we should not forget that Jesus often told his disciples and others that he was sent by the Father. That he actually came from the Father! That only He has seen God! And scripture teaches that no evil can dwell with God (Ps 5:4). So, couple this truth with Jn 10:17 and we have a very powerful picture of just who Christ is.

[boxcar]

Doc, the Lord brought a powerful passage to mind just a few minutes ago that speaks eloquently to the last point I made in 138. For example, when Jesus made such stupendous claims that he came from God and that only He has seen God, etc., Jesus was indirectly making a statement about his own character. Check out Psalm 15, for example.

Likewise, when Jesus told his followers that God loves him because he's going to lay down his life, etc, he was, again, making a veiled reference to his own moral character since the OT is very clear on what kind of people God loves.

And when you stop to reflect even more deeply on Jesus words in Jn 10:17, you'll come to realize that not too many people in the OT made that kind of claim -- the one notable exception being, perhaps, king David in the Psalms!

Finally, I would exhort you to read Psalm 91 very carefully. This is another messianic psalm. In fact, a portion of this psalm was quoted by Satan when he tempted Christ! This is how verse 14 reads:

Ps 91:14
14 "Because he loves me ," says the LORD, "I will rescue him;
NIV

So much for the unsupported theory of unconditional love.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by boxcar

My, my, you're been a busy camper. I have stirred the sleeping giant to wakefulness.

Yes, it's natural that Adam be traced back to the Son of God because Adam's state prior to the Fall was one of a "living being". Adam was, prior to his sin, spiritually alive unto God by virtue of the Holy Spirit that was breathed into Adam by God at the time of his creation. But after the Fall, Adam's state changed. Adam died! That is to say, he died spiritually. And there is zero evidence that Adam was ever restored to God. (I believe I wrote on this topic several years ago and gave about a 12-point argument to support my position.) However, there is good biblical evidence that God reconciled Eve to himself.

Moreover, you seem to forget that Jesus taught that his Father is only the God of the [spiritually] living; and that He was not the God of the dead (Mat 22:32; Mk 12:27; Lk 20:38). Well, since God is not the God of the dead, then neither can he be God the Father of the spiritually dead.

Additionally, only born again believers are the children of God (Jn 1:12; Mat 12:48-50; Mk 3:33-35, etc.).

As far as the Acts 17:28-29 passage goes, this is in the context of Paul preaching the gospel to Greeks in Athens. Since they were very religious people, Paul seized upon the opportunity to use one of their own poets' sayings as a springboard for his gospel message to them. He agrees with what the poet said because there is a sense in which the poet was right! In a broad, generic, universal sense the entire human race is the "offspring" of God because all mankind uniquely bears God's image. We're all made in his image and likeness. You and I and everyone else are all part of the human family; therefore, as God's unique image bearers, we're all of one kind! We're all "related" to God in that sense and in that sense only! However, this doesn't mean that just because we're all members of the human family that there is a personal, intimate, loving, spiritual, familial relationship among all the members of the human family, or even more importantly between all members of the human family and their Creator! The Doctrine of Reconciliation makes this truth crystal clear!

Also, it's the gift of the Holy Spirit that unites a believer to the Father and the Son and makes him a member of the divine family. And only born again believers are bestowed that precious gift!

Finally, I would also remind you that from the very beginning -- right after the Fall -- God plainly said there would be two spiritual seeds running throughout mankind. We have the godly "seed of the woman" and the ungodly "seed of the serpent" (Gen 3:15). Don't you remember that Jesus told the Pharisees that their [spiritual] father was the devil -- that they belonged to him (Jn 8:44)!? How could it be that those Pharisees have two spiritual fathers!?

I'll stop here for now and tackle the rest of your post later. Gotta run.

"There is a sense in which the poet was right"!

You could have stopped there. That's all I meant to convey.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But it does not follow logically that God loves unconditionally, nor is it taught anywhere in scripture. In fact, if it were taught in scripture, it would contradict no small number of passages. I have already provided several qualified statements relative to God's love but here is a partial list of scriptures that explicitly teach that God "hates" both sin and the sinner (Ps 5:5-6; 10:3; 11:5; Jer 12:8; Dan 12:2; Hos 9:15; Nah 1:14, Rom 9:13 etc.)

God allowed the world to continue on after the Fall so that He could redeem a people for himself. This is stated in Gen 3:15 to the [one] seed of the woman as "he" -- alluding to the Messiah. I could just as well argue that God has loved his elect from all eternity and that this is why he has allowed the world to continue -- so that all his chosen ones -- every single last one of them -- will be brought into his kingdom. We shouldn't forget that the Creator/Redeemer manifests his "Divine Goodness" particularly toward those who love him and who have been [effectually] called according to his purpose (Rom 8:28-30). This goodness is manifested to his elect through his sovereign saving grace, whereas God's general goodness toward all men (in the distributive sense) is manifested through his common grace (Mat 5:45).

Also, God has allowed the fallen angels to exist even though their doom is sealed! And he has no intentions of ever redeeming them.

Lastly, the final nail in the coffin of your thesis is that we humans will always be human no matter our spiritual condition when we die! The redeemed in the next age will still be human even though the saints will have a very different kind of body after the resurrection of the living. Likewise, after the resurrection of the dead, all the eternally damned people will still be fully human for the duration of eternity in their final state of the second death in the lake of fire. Since the humanity of the damned will continue throughout eternity, then why can't those predestined for destruction exist for several millennia in this age?

In short, God has permitted good and evil (and all this entails) to exist side-by-side all these millennia so that he could manifest his infinite wisdom and love for his elect, while simultaneously manifesting to all mankind his justice for all eternity.

I'll finish up in my next post.

God has "unconditionally" extended the Good of existence to creatures. Defining terms like the "Good" would require background into the incorporation of Western philosophy by the Early Church Fathers, in the belief that grace builds upon, and doesn't destroy our nature. The Reformers had no use for philosophy, Aristotle, etc. I don't think you've had much exposure to this, other than utilizing Aristotelian Thomism to defend The First Way vs Actor, hcap, et.al.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Oh, no, no. Foul! What you're trying to do here is hardly exegitical! You're taking two unrelated passages and attempting to synthesize them in order to support your thesis.

And just as importantly, the two different passages you cite don't meet my criteria which specifically calls for any instance of gospel preaching that calls sinners to faith and repentance by telling these sinners that God also loves them.

Rom 5:8 is dealing with God's elect, i.e. us, we and us again. Paul does not have in view in this passage any and all sinners indiscriminately. Of course, God loved his elect from all eternity! This precious truth harmonizes quite nicely with all scripture.

As far as Jn 3:16 is concerned, this is a classic example of eisegesis, whereby you read into the passage something that is not only not in it, but would also present numerous contradictions with other passages which teach differently. This particular passage should be understood from the mindset of God's Old Covenant people -- the Jews! To a Jewish mind, there were only two kinds of people in this world: Us and Them, that is to say Jews (the chosen ones) and Gentiles (the rest of the nations!) This is precisely how the vast majority of Old Covenant Jews would have thought! And this thinking would have been entirely consistent with how God thought about his covenant people and the non-covenant people of the world. See, for example, Gen 12:2-3; Ps 2:8-9; Isa 49:6. And these three passages harmonize quite nicely with Rev 5:9. The "world" is the Jewish and Gentile nations which God loves -- but not in the sense of each and every person in those nations.

One last thought before moving on: With all the bad gospel presentations that sadly abound in today's church that tell people that God loves all sinners, one would reasonably think that the scriptures would contain at least two or three such examples that would support such bold declarations. But, again, I challenge you to find even one.

(emphasis mine)

"Dreadful", you say? Perhaps at first blush. But to a pious Jew, with a good working knowledge of the OT scriptures, Jesus' words would not only have rang true, but would have been very comforting and reassuring that Jesus was truly the Holy One of Israel -- the promised Messiah! To this kind of Jew, Jesus' words in Jn 10:17 would inspire genuine faith in and love for the Messiah because what Jesus said comports so well with numerous OT scriptures. "The reason my Father loves me" -- right here and now -- in my God-incarnate form -- as the God-Man -- is because I obey him. I was sent here to this dark, forlorn world, in time and space, to perform my Father's will. To execute his redemptive plan for his chosen people. Let's think about this for a few moments.

Scripture teaches that Jesus is the [morally] spotless Lamb of God, without any [moral] blemish. Jesus knew no sin! There was never a time here on earth that Jesus even remotely entertained the thought of sin. And we know from scripture that God hates sin, c.f. Prov 6:16-19). He hates sin because it is antithetical to his holy character -- in fact to his thrice holy nature (Isa 6:3; Rev 6:8)! Holiness being the most exalted of all of God's attributes. God's holiness governs all that he is.

And as we saw yesterday, God must hate every unrepentant sinner because sin itself resides in the heart of every such sinner. All men are sinners by nature. In fact, I'll go even further and say that God cannot love any sinner, apart from the holy character of his Son and his atoning work on the Cross. God's love for any sinner, therefore, is based entirely on the merits of Christ! This is why God can love only those whom he predestined in eternity to be in Christ. This is precisely why so many scriptures qualify God's love (for the righteous, blameless, God-fearers, etc., while others explicitly state his hatred for unrepentant sinners -- because all such sinners are outside of Christ -- outside of a personal covenant relationship with God! God's Word is totally consistent with itself!

So...to a pious, God-fearing Jew, Jesus' words in John 10 would have been very comforting and reassuring because Jesus was affirming numerous OT scriptures about who God loves and who and what he hates. Jesus was reassuring his listeners that his Father loved him because he resolved to do his Father's will. That teaching would have soundly resonated with any pious, God-fearing, upright Jew.

Finally, we should not forget that Jesus often told his disciples and others that he was sent by the Father. That he actually came from the Father! That only He has seen God! And scripture teaches that no evil can dwell with God (Ps 5:4). So, couple this truth with Jn 10:17 and we have a very powerful picture of just who Christ is.[/QUOTE]

Again, I don't think you've had much exposure to deliberations on the inner life of the Trinity. It's a contemplative path that isolates certain words in scripture like "Word", "Son", "Father" that the sacred authors employed to convey something analogous to the relations of the Persons of the Trinity. The point of my addressing them is to state that the Father and Son, and Spirit are of one mind and will, else there would be something one has that the other didn't, an impossibility if each Person possess wholly in Himself the Divine Nature. The Father's love for the Son could never be "conditional".

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

(emphasis mine)

"Dreadful", you say? Perhaps at first blush. But to a pious Jew, with a good working knowledge of the OT scriptures, Jesus' words would not only have rang true, but would have been very comforting and reassuring that Jesus was truly the Holy One of Israel -- the promised Messiah! To this kind of Jew, Jesus' words in Jn 10:17 would inspire genuine faith in and love for the Messiah because what Jesus said comports so well with numerous OT scriptures. "The reason my Father loves me" -- right here and now -- in my God-incarnate form -- as the God-Man -- is because I obey him. I was sent here to this dark, forlorn world, in time and space, to perform my Father's will. To execute his redemptive plan for his chosen people. Let's think about this for a few moments.

Scripture teaches that Jesus is the [morally] spotless Lamb of God, without any [moral] blemish. Jesus knew no sin! There was never a time here on earth that Jesus even remotely entertained the thought of sin. And we know from scripture that God hates sin, c.f. Prov 6:16-19). He hates sin because it is antithetical to his holy character -- in fact to his thrice holy nature (Isa 6:3; Rev 6:8)! Holiness being the most exalted of all of God's attributes. God's holiness governs all that he is.

And as we saw yesterday, God must hate every unrepentant sinner because sin itself resides in the heart of every such sinner. All men are sinners by nature. In fact, I'll go even further and say that God cannot love any sinner, apart from the holy character of his Son and his atoning work on the Cross. God's love for any sinner, therefore, is based entirely on the merits of Christ! This is why God can love only those whom he predestined in eternity to be in Christ. This is precisely why so many scriptures qualify God's love (for the righteous, blameless, God-fearers, etc., while others explicitly state his hatred for unrepentant sinners -- because all such sinners are outside of Christ -- outside of a personal covenant relationship with God! God's Word is totally consistent with itself!

So...to a pious, God-fearing Jew, Jesus' words in John 10 would have been very comforting and reassuring because Jesus was affirming numerous OT scriptures about who God loves and who and what he hates. Jesus was reassuring his listeners that his Father loved him because he resolved to do his Father's will. That teaching would have soundly resonated with any pious, God-fearing, upright Jew.

Finally, we should not forget that Jesus often told his disciples and others that he was sent by the Father. That he actually came from the Father! That only He has seen God! And scripture teaches that no evil can dwell with God (Ps 5:4). So, couple this truth with Jn 10:17 and we have a very powerful picture of just who Christ is.

Again, I don't think you've had much exposure to deliberations on the inner life of the Trinity. It's a contemplative path that isolates certain words in scripture like "Word", "Son", "Father" that the sacred authors employed to convey something analogous to the relations of the Persons of the Trinity. The point of my addressing them is to state that the Father and Son, and Spirit are of one mind and will, else there would be something one has that the other didn't, an impossibility if each Person possess wholly in Himself the Divine Nature. The Father's love for the Son could never be "conditional".[/QUOTE]

Well then...you need to take that up with Jesus because he clearly qualified His Father's love for him. In fact, that teaching, too, in John 10 was received by Jesus from the Father, so you'll have file a formal complaint with him, as well.

Meanwhile, not only can the Father's love be conditional, but it must be conditional due to the Father's holy character. Meditate on this: God can only delight in, rejoice over and express his everlasting lovingkindness to those whose lives reflect his holy character and whose hearts delight in Him and love Him. This is precisely why the scriptures contain so many passages that either qualify God's love that he has for his covenant people or that expresses his hatred toward unrepentant sinners. As stated previously, Jesus' teaching in John 10 is perfectly consistent with a large body of scripture.

Just as God cannot swear by anyone except himself, since no one is greater than he, neither can he love anyone whose character does not measure up to His. Since only the Son has ever loved the Father perfectly and always kept his commandments perfectly, then only those in Christ can in turn be loved by the Father. In other words, the Father loves his covenant people strictly on the basis of the person and work of Jesus Christ. And that, sir, is the very essence of conditional love! You can take this incredible truth to the bank!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

God has "unconditionally" extended the Good of existence to creatures. Defining terms like the "Good" would require background into the incorporation of Western philosophy by the Early Church Fathers, in the belief that grace builds upon, and doesn't destroy our nature. The Reformers had no use for philosophy, Aristotle, etc. I don't think you've had much exposure to this, other than utilizing Aristotelian Thomism to defend The First Way vs Actor, hcap, et.al.

But that doesn't mean that God unconditionally loves all. God chose to not destroy Adam and Eve immediately after Fall in order to execute his plan of redemption for all those He foreknew and predestined to eternal life in eternity. In order for God to redeem for himself many,he chose to not destroy all.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

"There is a sense in which the poet was right"!

You could have stopped there. That's all I meant to convey.

Oh...okay...you should have stated that up front. Glad you agree with me, though. Besides, the universal fatherhood of God toward all would be pretty tricky to synthesize with the NT Doctrine of Adoption of the elect (Rom 8:15; Eph 1:5, etc.).

[Actor]

Originally Posted by woodtoo

Apparently it is now. Your freedoms are just an illusion now too.

Or hadn't you noticed.

I noticed.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by porchy44

Atheists have objections to or outright denial of free will. And it's funny because if you throw out free will, it’s like you and I can’t criticize each other. If I make fun of your post, you make fun of my posts, everything has to be the way it is.

Give or take quantum uncertainty!

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Again, I don't think you've had much exposure to deliberations on the inner life of the Trinity. It's a contemplative path that isolates certain words in scripture like "Word", "Son", "Father" that the sacred authors employed to convey something analogous to the relations of the Persons of the Trinity. The point of my addressing them is to state that the Father and Son, and Spirit are of one mind and will, else there would be something one has that the other didn't, an impossibility if each Person possess wholly in Himself the Divine Nature. The Father's love for the Son could never be "conditional".

Well then...you need to take that up with Jesus because he clearly qualified His Father's love for him. In fact, that teaching, too, in John 10 was received by Jesus from the Father, so you'll have file a formal complaint with him, as well.

Meanwhile, not only can the Father's love be conditional, but it must be conditional due to the Father's holy character. Meditate on this: God can only delight in, rejoice over and express his everlasting lovingkindness to those whose lives reflect his holy character and whose hearts delight in Him and love Him. This is precisely why the scriptures contain so many passages that either qualify God's love that he has for his covenant people or that expresses his hatred toward unrepentant sinners. As stated previously, Jesus' teaching in John 10 is perfectly consistent with a large body of scripture.

Just as God cannot swear by anyone except himself, since no one is greater than he, neither can he love anyone whose character does not measure up to His. Since only the Son has ever loved the Father perfectly and always kept his commandments perfectly, then only those in Christ can in turn be loved by the Father. In other words, the Father loves his covenant people strictly on the basis of the person and work of Jesus Christ. And that, sir, is the very essence of conditional love! You can take this incredible truth to the bank![/QUOTE]

So the Father's love for the Son, expressed at his baptism, e.g., "Thou art my beloved Son" (Lk 3:22), was contingent upon fulfilling Jn 10:17? The immutable Father's love could change? The eternal exchange of love between Father and Son in the inner life of the Trinity was conditional?
The context of Jn 10:17 is that Christ's whole life is an offering to the Father (Heb 10:5-7). They are eternally of the same mind and will, so that Christ would "set his face toward Jerusalem" in freedom to lay down his life, imaging the Trinitarian life and love whereby the Persons pour out and receive Divine love in an eternal exchange. In his Divine nature which informed his human nature, even in the Incarnation Christ was participating in Trinitarian life and love!
I'm not disputing unconditional election per se, but your Trinitarianism is a bit off.

[porchy44]

Originally Posted by porchy44
Atheists have objections to or outright denial of free will. And it's funny because if you throw out free will, it’s like you and I can’t criticize each other. If I make fun of your post, you make fun of my posts, everything has to be the way it is.

Originally Posted by Actor

Give or take quantum uncertainty!

In that case, if your friend knocks, don't answer.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Well then...you need to take that up with Jesus because he clearly qualified His Father's love for him. In fact, that teaching, too, in John 10 was received by Jesus from the Father, so you'll have file a formal complaint with him, as well.

Meanwhile, not only can the Father's love be conditional, but it must be conditional due to the Father's holy character. Meditate on this: God can only delight in, rejoice over and express his everlasting lovingkindness to those whose lives reflect his holy character and whose hearts delight in Him and love Him. This is precisely why the scriptures contain so many passages that either qualify God's love that he has for his covenant people or that expresses his hatred toward unrepentant sinners. As stated previously, Jesus' teaching in John 10 is perfectly consistent with a large body of scripture.

Just as God cannot swear by anyone except himself, since no one is greater than he, neither can he love anyone whose character does not measure up to His. Since only the Son has ever loved the Father perfectly and always kept his commandments perfectly, then only those in Christ can in turn be loved by the Father. In other words, the Father loves his covenant people strictly on the basis of the person and work of Jesus Christ. And that, sir, is the very essence of conditional love! You can take this incredible truth to the bank!

So the Father's love for the Son, expressed at his baptism, e.g., "Thou art my beloved Son" (Lk 3:22), was contingent upon fulfilling Jn 10:17? The immutable Father's love could change? The eternal exchange of love between Father and Son in the inner life of the Trinity was conditional?
The context of Jn 10:17 is that Christ's whole life is an offering to the Father (Heb 10:5-7). They are eternally of the same mind and will, so that Christ would "set his face toward Jerusalem" in freedom to lay down his life, imaging the Trinitarian life and love whereby the Persons pour out and receive Divine love in an eternal exchange. In his Divine nature which informed his human nature, even in the Incarnation Christ was participating in Trinitarian life and love!
I'm not disputing unconditional election per se, but your Trinitarianism is a bit off.

No, the immutable love the Father had for the Son could never change, any more than God-incarnate could ever sin! (Meditate on this truth.) But it doesn't follow that the Father cannot love the Son because his character is just as holy and righteous as his. If God could love anyone who is less than him morally, i.e. who falls short of his glory (Rom 3:23), then this would make him a sinner! It would make him flawed. It would make him incomplete; for he would be loving someone who is imperfect. He would be loving imperfection itself (sin, corruption)! This is precisely why God's love for repentant sinners must be grounded in Christ's perfections -- because Jesus never fell short of God's glory. In fact, this is also precisely why none of God's born again children can ever lose their salvation, since both God's love and his grace toward the elect find their ground in Christ! This is why to a true believer Jesus Christ is EVERYTHING to him in the fullest sense of this term.

As I suggested the other day, did you read the messianic 91st Psalm? Ponder verse 9 which starts off with "IF".