Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 02-12-2018, 09:58 AM   #1
Andy Asaro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,789
Effects of sports betting on horse racing to be examined

https://www.gamingtoday.com/article/...to_be_examined

Excerpt:

The continuing examination of the possible effects of national sports wagering, should it become legal in the U.S., continues March 13-17 in New Orleans at the Horsemen's Benevolent & Protective Association (HBPA) convention.

Sports betting and its possible ramifications on horse racing will come under scrutiny in a discussion panel featuring William Hill U.S. CEO Joe Asher.
===========================================

Only way it can benefit racing IMO is to only allow it at tracks, OTB's, and Casinos (Brick and Mortar) for first few years. The States that do that will help horse racing. The ones that don't will hurt horse racing.

Last edited by Andy Asaro; 02-12-2018 at 10:04 AM.
Andy Asaro is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 12:57 PM   #2
AlsoEligible
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro View Post
Only way it can benefit racing IMO is to only allow it at tracks, OTB's, and Casinos (Brick and Mortar) for first few years. The States that do that will help horse racing. The ones that don't will hurt horse racing.
Agreed. Although even in those cases, how many existing horse players at the track will bail on the game to go wager on sports instead?

Sure, facilities will get a huge influx of new people showing up to place sports wagers, and maybe a few of them will throw some dollars at horse racing. But would that be offset by the number of existing players who take their money out of the pools to go put it on football or basketball instead?

Maybe I'm overly pessimistic, but I just don't see how racing (at least in it's current form) survives the nationwide legalization of sports betting. Whether wagering is allowed online from day one, or not until year three, sooner or later it will happen. Nothing I've seen from inside the industry shows that anyone is prepared for that. Nor do I have any faith that the industry would use a 2-3 year buffer to come up with a plan.
AlsoEligible is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 01:35 PM   #3
jay68802
Registered User
 
jay68802's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 15,110
Why look at the possible effects on horse racing? The effect is rather obvious, more competition for the wagering dollar. Giving a track a cut of the revenue without any incentive to change has proven unhealthy for the sport already. If a track wants a cut, say ok if the field size is 9 or more starters. Set the take out at the same rate as sports betting. Make accurate information available to the public. Make your drug enforcement have some teeth. In other words, make your product competitive. Horse racing has already proven that without incentive, they will continue in the same direction as they were heading before casino money came along, downward.
jay68802 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 01:41 PM   #4
PointGiven
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 89
I am wanting to know how it will effect states that don't have horse wagering will it be now allowed under "sport"
PointGiven is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 02:02 PM   #5
Poindexter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,964
I have repeatedly stated this game is way overpriced for the masses. That being said if the masses want to bet sports, isn't the door already open? Offshore sports betting has been here for over 20 years. Bookies have always have been here. I highly doubt anyone who wants to bet games is not betting games. So the way I look at it is that if sports betting were to become legal, it introduces gambling to a large chunk of society that has mostly abstained from it. Sure they may play in a weekly card game or go to Vegas a couple times a year......but for the most part they are living their life without gambling.

So in my mind the problem is not that sports betting could be here to stay and that horseplayers are going to leave the game in droves to suddenly bet sports. To me the problem is that when the horse player bets sports they realize that there $500 betting sports provides a lot more entertainment. They bet 10 games a week for $55/$50 (whether they will be able to get a bet down at 11/10 remains to be seen) and on a typical week they go 5-5 an lose a whopping $25. In contrast if they are betting $500 a week on racing, they are losing 100 to $150 a week(Multiply that by 52 weeks and you have something to talk about). So if sports betting is offerred at 11/10 then it will not take very long for the masses to figure out that there is a better gamble out there. On the other hand if the greed of the leagues causes sports betting to be offerred at 12/10 or even 13/10 which is very possible (I haven't been following it but I know these discussions are out there ) then the sports bettor is losing $50 or $75 a week and it is a little less obvious that sports betting is the better gamble.

Whatever the case racing has to figure out if they want to become a player in the gambling industy (by eliminating rebates and bringing takeout to 8/10/12 %). If they do sports betting will transform a lot more of the population into gambling which could in turn will transform more people into horse racing. Initially a good % of the public isn't going to know they are getting gouged at racetracks, so sports betting may actually help racing for a time, but unless racing wants to compete in the gambling market by offerring a competitive betting marketplace, I think we will have much of what we have today until sports betting eventually starts siphoning off players at a pretty fast rate.............At this point it can get pretty ugly.

Any chance racing sees the light? Sadly I think not. If they don't they can look back to this moment in time and realize this was the point in time they really needed to do something right and they failed to act and it cost them everything. Of course they can always hope that sports betting is not leagalized and everything will be just peachy keen.
Poindexter is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 03:02 PM   #6
Andy Asaro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlsoEligible View Post
Agreed. Although even in those cases, how many existing horse players at the track will bail on the game to go wager on sports instead?

Sure, facilities will get a huge influx of new people showing up to place sports wagers, and maybe a few of them will throw some dollars at horse racing. But would that be offset by the number of existing players who take their money out of the pools to go put it on football or basketball instead?

Maybe I'm overly pessimistic, but I just don't see how racing (at least in it's current form) survives the nationwide legalization of sports betting. Whether wagering is allowed online from day one, or not until year three, sooner or later it will happen. Nothing I've seen from inside the industry shows that anyone is prepared for that. Nor do I have any faith that the industry would use a 2-3 year buffer to come up with a plan.
Only way to go if they have brick and mortar wagering only is to lower takeout on the high churn wagers. Exactas have to be down to 16% and must pay to the penny on breakage. BTW sports bettors do understand parlays and round robins. They would have 2 or 3 years to convert a lot of them if the price is right IMO
Andy Asaro is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 03:31 PM   #7
Denny
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 621
What's great about 16% on Exactas? Nothing really.

It's still way OVERPRICED.

Parimutuel wagering was invented with an ideal TAKEOUT OF 10%. No one ever remembers this (or is aware), including so-called EXPERTS.

Poindexter is the only one right so far in this thread.
Denny is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 03:33 PM   #8
Andy Asaro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
What's great about 16% on Exactas? Nothing really.

It's still way OVERPRICED.

Parimutuel wagering was invented with an ideal TAKEOUT OF 10%. No one ever remembers this (or is aware), including so-called EXPERTS.

Poindexter is the only one right so far in this thread.
It would be the lowest of any major jurisdiction by far. NYRA is 18.5%.
Andy Asaro is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 03:33 PM   #9
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
Parimutuel wagering was invented with an ideal TAKEOUT OF 10%.
Source?
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 04:54 PM   #10
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poindexter View Post
So in my mind the problem is not that sports betting could be here to stay and that horseplayers are going to leave the game in droves to suddenly bet sports. To me the problem is that when the horse player bets sports they realize that there $500 betting sports provides a lot more entertainment.
There is an argument that I have heard made that for a casual player, a bet on a game is the absolute best form of gambling.

The basic argument is that when you bet on a game, it gives you hours of action on one bet. A horse race gives you a couple of minutes of action, a poker hand about a minute of action, and a roulette wheel or slot machine gives you a few seconds of it. Which then requires the player to put additional money into the game to keep the action going, which means they lose their money faster.

Honestly, I think legal sports betting is a threat to a LOT of other forms of gambling with respect to the casual bettor's dollar.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 05:23 PM   #11
Denny
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 621
10%

PA, you do the research. I came across it years ago. It started in France, thus the name. The originator/inventor pegged the takeout at 10% as being equitable for BOTH sides. Then one side got greedy as time went on.

Good research project for a Math major looking for a PhD. I'm too old.
________

AA, just because it's lower doesn't make it right. It's too high everywhere.
16% is a poor bargaining position to take.
Start with our side demanding 10% and work from there.
Denny is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 05:27 PM   #12
onefast99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 5,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
There is an argument that I have heard made that for a casual player, a bet on a game is the absolute best form of gambling.

The basic argument is that when you bet on a game, it gives you hours of action on one bet. A horse race gives you a couple of minutes of action, a poker hand about a minute of action, and a roulette wheel or slot machine gives you a few seconds of it. Which then requires the player to put additional money into the game to keep the action going, which means they lose their money faster.

Honestly, I think legal sports betting is a threat to a LOT of other forms of gambling with respect to the casual bettor's dollar.
As with horse racing where no one plays every race other forms of gambling allow you to sit out a few hands or rolls of the dice.
__________________
Remember the NJ horseman got you here now do the right thing with the purses!
onefast99 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 05:30 PM   #13
Andy Asaro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
PA, you do the research. I came across it years ago. It started in France, thus the name. The originator/inventor pegged the takeout at 10% as being equitable for BOTH sides. Then one side got greedy as time went on.

Good research project for a Math major looking for a PhD. I'm too old.
________

AA, just because it's lower doesn't make it right. It's too high everywhere.
16% is a poor bargaining position to take.
Start with our side demanding 10% and work from there.
Our side????
Andy Asaro is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 05:34 PM   #14
Afleet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Source?
is there a source that says 25% is ideal?
Afleet is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 05:41 PM   #15
horses4courses
Registered User
 
horses4courses's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 14,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afleet View Post
is there a source that says 25% is ideal?
The Track Executive Manifesto?
__________________
You're going to lose.
You know that, right?
horses4courses is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.