Pegasus Cup

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

Pretty funny, if you just listened to the negative view race horses are a shadow of what used to be running on the track, but the last 6-7 years we have seen some really really good horses. But the overall depth is much lower, no denying that.

Well, look. Gun Runner is a wonderful horse. But he is a wonderful horse based on, what, about 9 races since his loss in the 2016 Dirt Mile?

Historically, that is nothing. Of course, it looks like Forego compared to Arrogate's 4 race career as a top horse. But Gun Runner is, in fact, nothing like the old timers.

The only recent horses with an old time style career were Chrome and Game on Dude (and Beholder if you add in mares).

[Fager Fan]

Can we say Secretariat? Zero runs at 4. Running at 4 is basically what most of our greats did. Most also had 15+ starts. The great geldings were exceptions. So I think if we have a horse who races through age 4, and hopefully showed quality from 2 til 4, those horses compare reasonably with "old schoolers."

But I think the point being made was that we've seen a cluster of horses getting 110+ Beyers, many in the high mid to high teens and above, after a relative drought, so I agree that this is encouraging.

[Fager Fan]

PS: You forgot Curlin, and I don't see what CC did that was better than Curlin as far as racing length and taking on all comers.

[cj]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Well, look. Gun Runner is a wonderful horse. But he is a wonderful horse based on, what, about 9 races since his loss in the 2016 Dirt Mile?

Historically, that is nothing. Of course, it looks like Forego compared to Arrogate's 4 race career as a top horse. But Gun Runner is, in fact, nothing like the old timers.

The only recent horses with an old time style career were Chrome and Game on Dude (and Beholder if you add in mares).

The game has changed. If we are going to hold up horses to the standard of the old days as far as how often they race we'll never have another great horse. Nobody thinks Clayton Kershaw isn't a great pitcher because Cy Young won over 500 games and he has only 144. He probably won't hit 250.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

The game has changed. If we are going to hold up horses to the standard of the old days as far as how often they race we'll never have another great horse. Nobody thinks Clayton Kershaw isn't a great pitcher because Cy Young won over 500 games and he has only 144. He probably won't hit 250.

We don't want to dumb down our horses though.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by cj

The game has changed. If we are going to hold up horses to the standard of the old days as far as how often they race we'll never have another great horse. Nobody thinks Clayton Kershaw isn't a great pitcher because Cy Young won over 500 games and he has only 144. He probably won't hit 250.

I know that.

It is worth noting, though, that you can take that argument way too far. For instance, if baseball gets to the point where starters pitch 3 innings, it really would be quite wrong to declare a 3 inning starter an all time great.

It is still possible to have a long career and lots of races. So why reward owners and trainers with fulsome praise for refusing to run their horses enough?

Gun Runner is very good. Not an all time great.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I know that.

It is worth noting, though, that you can take that argument way too far. For instance, if baseball gets to the point where starters pitch 3 innings, it really would be quite wrong to declare a 3 inning starter an all time great.

It is still possible to have a long career and lots of races. So why reward owners and trainers with fulsome praise for refusing to run their horses enough?

Gun Runner is very good. Not an all time great.

Not to worry. He won't be remembered as a great.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I know that.

It is worth noting, though, that you can take that argument way too far. For instance, if baseball gets to the point where starters pitch 3 innings, it really would be quite wrong to declare a 3 inning starter an all time great.

It is still possible to have a long career and lots of races. So why reward owners and trainers with fulsome praise for refusing to run their horses enough?

Gun Runner is very good. Not an all time great.

I would put him into the top 10 horses the past 20 years, thats gotta put you into pretty good company in terms of great.

I dont think he was as good as Arrogate, more consistent and stayed on form longer, but not as talented in peak form.

He is better than Curlin in my book, better than Rachael or Zenyatta for sure, better than Blame and Mineshaft. I mean, honestly you cant count on many that were better in 20 years.

[fiznow]

They should run Gun Runner in the Dubai World Cup again. If he wins he is really great and will be in the history books.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Not to worry. He won't be remembered as a great.

Sure he will, unless you're an old fuddy duddy.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

Sure he will, unless you're an old fuddy duddy.

I'm not too old. Just picky. As someone said, a top 20 since 2000, surely. Won't be in top 20 all-time, and once you get past 20, they start being distinctly not as good as those below them. I'm stingy.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I'm not too old. Just picky. As someone said, a top 20 since 2000, surely. Won't be in top 20 all-time, and once you get past 20, they start being distinctly not as good as those below them. I'm stingy.

Yeah, I see that. But he is way better than top 20 since 2000.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by cj

Yeah, I see that. But he is way better than top 20 since 2000.

Do you have a top 20 since 2000? Or, if you want to avoid 10 pages of the "How great was Zenyatta?" debate for the 50th time, maybe a top 10 colts and geldings since 2000? Would Gun Runner make that list?

[cj]

Originally Posted by castaway01

Do you have a top 20 since 2000? Or, if you want to avoid 10 pages of the "How great was Zenyatta?" debate for the 50th time, maybe a top 10 colts and geldings since 2000? Would Gun Runner make that list?

I don't have one, just can't think there is any way in the world he isn't top 10, probably top 5.

[JustRalph]

For the fun of just watching them in “their time”

Rachel Alexandria’s campaign was great. Much more fun than Gun Runner. But “fun” is not a valid currency in the game