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Old 01-17-2018, 05:40 PM   #121
o_crunk
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Originally Posted by green80 View Post
I don't doubt that to be true. I would say that over 90% of owners lose money. With the cost of the horse,the training or boarding cost, vet bills , etc. a horse has to earn 20 to 25k a year or more to break even. How many horses do that?
47,123 horses made at least 1 start in the US in 2017.

29 won $1M or more.
1,366 won $100K or more.
4,175 won $50K or more.
11,745 won $25K or more.
14,510 won $20K or more.
32,613 won less than $20K.

The median earnings for that 47,123 were $9,295. Average $21,953.

Both median and average purse earnings are up pretty significantly in the last 20 years. Median up 118%. Average up 71%.
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:27 PM   #122
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All of them get too much of the takeout, so I consider all of them "bad" for business. A bit better is if one is owned by a track and one can see that one way or another, the profits are being put back into racing. This is why I use only xpressbet as I see the ways Stronach puts money back into the sport...
I have the exact opposite viewpoint.

I make it a point to support the independent ADW or contest site with my hard earned dollars because they are the only ones doing any innovating.

Imo, one of the (many) reasons racing finds itself mired in a downward -- or right now at best stagnant trend is: complete and utter lack of innovation.

Look around you. Innovation isn't some random cosmic accident.

Innovation - Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation

Quote:
...innovation is often also viewed as the application of better solutions that meet new requirements, unarticulated needs, or existing market needs.
Over the past 15 years the best performing publicly traded companies... Apple, Amazon, Google, Netflix, Priceline, and more recently NVIDIA, etc., just to name a few, have realized GROWTH in top line sales, bottom line P&L, and share price that is nothing short of phenomenal...

Imo, not because they lucked into it -- but rather -- because these companies are constantly striving to identify new target markets, identify the needs and wants of the customers in those target markets, and because top management at these companies has made it their mission to implement solutions designed to do an ever improving job of satisfying those customer needs and wants.

Imo, by way of comparison, racing industry decision makers -- and by that I mean track management, leadership of horsemen's alphabet groups, and state regulators -- have been completely lacking (closer to comically terrible actually) when it comes to innovation.

As a horseplayer -- I am painfully aware of the seemingly endless list of unaddressed horseplayer needs and wants. Mainly because I have to deal with them on a daily basis.

But that doesn't mean there hasn't been any innovation in horse racing.

• Exchange wagering is certainly a form of innovation. Imo, a form of innovation that has clear potential to bring growth to racing. And a form of innovation that industry decision makers here in North America have resisted (kicking and screaming) at just about every opportunity.

• Handicapping tournaments such as those offered by Derby Wars is another form of innovation. Imo, this is a form of innovation that also has clear potential to bring some serious growth to racing. (Just look at fantasy sports.) But apparently, this is also a form of innovation industry decision makers (for instance The Stronach Group) will resist at nearly every opportunity.

• Better more intuitive wagering interfaces are an innovation. One that wasn't envisioned or created by industry decision makers -- but rather one created by independent ADWs. (Bet Builder which was created by Premier Turf Club back in the day and has since been copied in one form or another by a lot of others comes to mind.)

• Text file upload is another innovation. To the best of my knowledge, this is an innovation created not by industry decision makers, but by independent ADWs.

• Free past performances from ADWs if you make a bet on today's card is another form of innovation. Imo, an innovation industry decision makers have managed to f#!k up beyond belief. (I'll leave that discussion if anyone wants to have it for another post or thread.)

• Trakus is another innovation. Imo, an innovation industry decision makers have also managed to f#!k up beyond belief. (See one of the many threads about mistimed races for that discussion.)

My point?

I cannot think of a single recent innovation that has come from industry decision makers that can even be remotely viewed as fitting the definition of innovation listed on the Wikipedia page that I linked to above:
Quote:
the application of better solutions that meet new requirements, unarticulated needs, or existing market needs.
If we rely solely on industry decision makers for innovation --

If we allow industry decision makers to thwart every innovation --

At best (if we are lucky) we'll see ZERO growth.

Look around you.

Through lack of innovation, industry decision makers have created the horse racing equivalent of Sears with an empty parking lot in an Apple, Amazon, Google, Netflix, Priceline, and NVIDIA world.


-jp

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Last edited by Jeff P; 01-17-2018 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:38 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Jeff P View Post
I have the exact opposite viewpoint.

I make it a point to support the independent ADW or contest site with my hard earned dollars because they are the only ones doing any innovating.

Imo, one of the (many) reasons racing finds itself mired in a downward -- or right now at best stagnant trend is: complete and utter lack of innovation.

Look around you. Innovation isn't some random cosmic accident.

Innovation - Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation



Over the past 15 years the best performing publicly traded companies... Apple, Amazon, Google, Netflix, Priceline, and more recently NVIDIA, etc., just to name a few, have realized GROWTH in top line sales, bottom line P&L, and share price that is nothing short of phenomenal...

Imo, not because they lucked into it -- but rather -- because these companies are constantly striving to identify new target markets, identify the needs and wants of the customers in those target markets, and because top management at these companies has made it their mission to implement solutions designed to do an ever improving job of satisfying those customer needs and wants.

Imo, by way of comparison, racing industry decision makers -- and by that I mean track management, leadership of horsemen's alphabet groups, and state regulators -- have been completely lacking (closer to comically terrible actually) when it comes to innovation.

As a horseplayer -- I am painfully aware of the seemingly endless list of unaddressed horseplayer needs and wants. Mainly because I have to deal with them on a daily basis.

But that doesn't mean there hasn't been any innovation in horse racing.

• Exchange wagering is certainly a form of innovation. Imo, a form of innovation that has clear potential to bring growth to racing. And a form of innovation that industry decision makers here in North America have resisted (kicking and screaming) at just about every opportunity.

• Handicapping tournaments such as those offered by Derby Wars is another form of innovation. Imo, this is a form of innovation that also has clear potential to bring some serious growth to racing. (Just look at fantasy sports.) But apparently, this is also a form of innovation industry decision makers (for instance The Stronach Group) will resist at nearly every opportunity.

• Better more intuitive wagering interfaces are an innovation. One that wasn't envisioned or created by industry decision makers -- but rather one created by independent ADWs. (Bet Builder which was created by Premier Turf Club back in the day and has since been copied in one form or another by a lot of others comes to mind.)

• Text file upload is another innovation. To the best of my knowledge, this is an innovation created not by industry decision makers, but by independent ADWs.

• Free past performances from ADWs if you make a bet on today's card is another form of innovation. Imo, an innovation industry decision makers have managed to f#!k up beyond belief. (I'll leave that discussion if anyone wants to have it for another post or thread.)

• Trakus is another innovation. Imo, an innovation industry decision makers have also managed to f#!k up beyond belief. (See one of the many threads about mistimed races for that discussion.)

My point?

I cannot think of a single recent innovation that has come from industry decision makers that can even be remotely viewed as fitting the definition of innovation listed on the Wikipedia page that I linked to above:


If we rely solely on industry decision makers for innovation --

If we allow industry decision makers to thwart every innovation --

At best (if we are lucky) we'll see ZERO growth.

Look around you.

Through lack of innovation, industry decision makers have created the horse racing equivalent of Sears with an empty parking lot in an Apple, Amazon, Google, Netflix, Priceline, and NVIDIA world.


-jp

.
It's not over yet but it's getting closer.
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Old 01-18-2018, 12:13 PM   #124
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I have to agree with Jeff P's post.

Here are a few examples.

ADW's should seriously discount, or give away PP's for free. I cannot tell you how many times I made a bet on a race not because I intended to but because it was the Timeform or DRF free races for the day. It also has the added bonus of bringing in new players who dont want to spend money on something they may only have a new interest in, or may keep someone interested who just right now does not have the money to bet.

Can someone explain to me why TVG even requires an account, and on top of that has to be in a certain state, to watch their shows? Makes zero sense in growing the sport.

New gamblers with the internet and in the information age sure as heck are going to understand that you need a rebate to be successful with this gambling model, so how do you start small and grow if you cant get a rebate, or a rebate that essentially is free pp's? Rebates essentially are stating the normal everyday model will not work gamblers in a skill based game over the long haul.
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Old 01-18-2018, 12:23 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by GMB@BP View Post

Here are a few examples.

ADW's should seriously discount, or give away PP's for free. I cannot tell you how many times I made a bet on a race not because I intended to but because it was the Timeform or DRF free races for the day. It also has the added bonus of bringing in new players who dont want to spend money on something they may only have a new interest in, or may keep someone interested who just right now does not have the money to bet.
Don't the ADWs currently offer their PPs for the price of a token $2 wager? This is as close to free as it gets...IMO. The injustice is when the tracks and the OTBs charge full-price for the PPs, to people who have already gone there to gamble.
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:01 PM   #126
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Don't the ADWs currently offer their PPs for the price of a token $2 wager? This is as close to free as it gets...IMO. The injustice is when the tracks and the OTBs charge full-price for the PPs, to people who have already gone there to gamble.
Yea, completely agree. I understand the need to turn a profit, but balancing the need to grow the game is also a factor that they are way to short sighted on.

But so I look at 10 tracks on a day, I need to put up $20 or $140 bucks a week or $560 a month to get my money back, just to look at the product I might purchase with a bet?
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:35 PM   #127
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I do most of my wagering on Harness racing.

Why?

One reason is the FREE PP's that are available DAILY.

USTrotting.com has partnered with participating tracks to offer free Trackmaster PP's - they call the Strategic Wagering Program. Usually P4's and P5's, sometimes other bet types.

DRF.com/Harness also offers free Harness Eye PP's just about daily on select tracks and bet types.

Another reason is the LOW TAKEOUTS on these wagers. For example, Meadowlands P4 and P5 TAKEOUT is 15%.

Recently Pompano Park lowered take to 12% on P4's!!! Lowest in the country.

These two tracks both participate in the Strategic Wagering program with USTA.

I PLAY EVERY DAY because of these free pp's being available.
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:45 PM   #128
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Yea, completely agree. I understand the need to turn a profit, but balancing the need to grow the game is also a factor that they are way to short sighted on.

But so I look at 10 tracks on a day, I need to put up $20 or $140 bucks a week or $560 a month to get my money back, just to look at the product I might purchase with a bet?
If I held a decision-making position in this game, then I would be handing the PPs out totally free, with no "strings attached"...because, as you say, "growing the game" is of utmost importance at this point and time. But I can also see the point of the ADW outlets, when they require a minimum bet before they allow access to the PPs. Why would they agree to give free PPs to people who are refusing to bet at ALL? Is a $2 bet on an entire day's card really too much to ask?
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:53 PM   #129
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If I held a decision-making position in this game, then I would be handing the PPs out totally free, with no "strings attached"...because, as you say, "growing the game" is of utmost importance at this point and time. But I can also see the point of the ADW outlets, when they require a minimum bet before they allow access to the PPs. Why would they agree to give free PPs to people who are refusing to bet at ALL? Is a $2 bet on an entire day's card really too much to ask?
The ADWs are in no worse condition than the tracks. Better, actually, because they don't have any printing costs. Both entities would have to pay for the digital information and the permission to distribute.
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Old 01-18-2018, 02:09 PM   #130
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The ADWs are in no worse condition than the tracks. Better, actually, because they don't have any printing costs. Both entities would have to pay for the digital information and the permission to distribute.
To me...paying for the PPs is akin to paying a restaurant for the right to look at the menu before ordering. At least the ADWs are handing out complete past-performances for the price of a minimum bet per day...and that's reasonable. But the tracks are selling horribly-abbreviated simulcast programs for $5...while the DRF is selling at $10+ a copy. And the cost doubles if the patron also wants the PM edition. The tracks should get their acts together and realize that a $20 cover-charge isn't the right lure for attracting customers for a day at the local track, or OTB outlet.
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Old 01-18-2018, 02:45 PM   #131
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I have to say I am in agreement with most of is being said about the distribution of racing information. Figuring out a way to distribute the information to the public at a price that is considered reasonable is a area the sport should be improving. If the customer wants the information in a readable format, get it to them. I will say that I thought Trakus was going to be a important step forward for the industry. That lasted until I visited their website for the first time and they proudly announced that the information collected was going to be made available to "horse racing insiders" and was not really for the general public or the customers that support this sport. Look at all the free information available for, name the 3 letter sport.NFL, NBA, PGA, ect. I do have one question to ask and that is, "Isn't robotic wagering a innovation?" And even though it caters to a small group of individuals, be considered a step in the right direction?
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:32 PM   #132
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I don't disagree with you two, just stating what I believe the problem to be, and I'm not sure who can pick up the cost for free data collection and distribution. It's that pesky no central authority again.
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:54 PM   #133
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i spoke to a guy that is a bookmaker a few weeks ago and he told me that he was getting "robo" players in sports and got rid of them. they would bet a game at +6 and 2 seconds after he placed the bet the game would go down to 4.

he told me that if he picked up new players he would have a small limit on them to make sure they weren't "robo" players. he told me that he would get cleaned out if he allowed those guys to play with him in sports.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:25 PM   #134
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If I held a decision-making position in this game, then I would be handing the PPs out totally free, with no "strings attached"...because, as you say, "growing the game" is of utmost importance at this point and time. But I can also see the point of the ADW outlets, when they require a minimum bet before they allow access to the PPs. Why would they agree to give free PPs to people who are refusing to bet at ALL? Is a $2 bet on an entire day's card really too much to ask?
IMHO, add to that free data to that list as well.

Ours is the only sport that I am aware of that charges for data.

Recently downloaded the play-by-play for every baseball game back to 1903 absolutely free.


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Old 01-18-2018, 08:54 PM   #135
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IMHO, add to that free data to that list as well.

Ours is the only sport that I am aware of that charges for data.

Recently downloaded the play-by-play for every baseball game back to 1903 absolutely free.


Dave

Surely you see the difference. Who needs basketball data?
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