Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 08-15-2022, 10:51 AM   #16
Tom
The Voice of Reason!
 
Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,468
I think the NYRA stewards are sending a clear message to the jckeys......
__________________
Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
Tom is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2022, 02:15 PM   #17
v j stauffer
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsy View Post
I saw it. But this is a General problem throughout racing and enforcing the rules . In just about every jurisdiction. Somehow the start is not equally weighted with the stretch or turns. The jockeys know this too. A lot of uncalled shenanigans at the start. I mean, if you can pull it off in the BC Classic…… that’s a message that almost anything goes. It’s not just about disciplining and punishment of an individual. The penalties are also meted out to send a message and make an example. Rules are meant to be bent in high level competition. If there’s no deterrent……. Well…,,, what do people expect?
Juding the start is a slippery slope. Not unlike holding in the NFL you could technically throw a flag on almost every play.

Do smart riders shave and take an edge at the start? Sure, they do. But we Stewards are pretty smart too and can watch for a continued pattern of pushing the envelope.

It's all about the opportunity to recover from a possible foul. Does losing a couple lengths at the start mean as much as the sixteenth pole?

Mathematically yes. Practically, not so much.

People who don't think suspensions are a deterrent are wrong. Getting a three day suspension is a VERY big deal. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Not only no money for three days. Most horses you lose to other riders are gone for more than just one race. Especially if the horse wins. Very unlikely they'll take the new pilot off for the next few starts.

Stewarding as it relates to race reviews is EXTREMELY SUBJECTIVE. It's not a perfect system but IMO it's the best available.

I know I'm in the minority here. But by and large I think the North American Steward do a pretty darn good, consistent job.

Just like an umpire with a bang bang play at first. No matter what you call. Half the people watching are going to be pissed. Comes with the territory.

I appreciate anyone who puts themselves in the firing line and tries to promote an unbiased, level playing field.
__________________
"Just because she's a hitter and a thief doesn't mean she's not a good woman in all the other places" Mayrose Prizzi
v j stauffer is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2022, 04:33 PM   #18
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Stewards do a decent job. And I generally oppose DQ's at the start unless we are absolutely certain it eliminated a horse from contention. (Remember, lots of horses recover from trouble at the start.)

But we should get rid of the designated race rule- maybe we'd need a voter initiative or something in California because the racing commission is in thrall to the owners and jockeys who love the rule. No other sport says "the poor owner will be hurt because someone is suspended". Baseball just suspended the heck out of Fernando Tatis Jr. They didn't tell the Padres "we'll let you use them in big games anyway".
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2022, 06:32 PM   #19
v j stauffer
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
Stewards do a decent job. And I generally oppose DQ's at the start unless we are absolutely certain it eliminated a horse from contention. (Remember, lots of horses recover from trouble at the start.)

But we should get rid of the designated race rule- maybe we'd need a voter initiative or something in California because the racing commission is in thrall to the owners and jockeys who love the rule. No other sport says "the poor owner will be hurt because someone is suspended". Baseball just suspended the heck out of Fernando Tatis Jr. They didn't tell the Padres "we'll let you use them in big games anyway".
Many well intentioned rules can be manipulated for personal gain. That happens often with this rule.

However, your analogy of the Padres doesn't resonate for me.

Some dedicated owners might go decades between chances at winning an important Stake.

Can see good arguments on both sides. I'd be inclined to NOT rescind the rule.
__________________
"Just because she's a hitter and a thief doesn't mean she's not a good woman in all the other places" Mayrose Prizzi
v j stauffer is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2022, 06:40 PM   #20
westernmassbob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by v j stauffer View Post
Juding the start is a slippery slope. Not unlike holding in the NFL you could technically throw a flag on almost every play.

“Do smart riders shave and take an edge at the start? Sure, they do. But we Stewards are pretty smart too and can watch for a continued pattern of pushing the envelope.”
What exactly do you mean by that ? Like you believe jockeys are intentionally coming out of the gate and interfering with other horses so they are in a better spot? I hardly believe that’s going on because that’s extremely dangerous for both parties involved. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze....or in this case the squeeze isn’t worth the juice.

Last edited by PaceAdvantage; 08-16-2022 at 09:30 AM.
westernmassbob is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2022, 06:54 PM   #21
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by v j stauffer View Post
However, your analogy of the Padres doesn't resonate for me.

Some dedicated owners might go decades between chances at winning an important Stake.
That actually describes the Padres quite well.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2022, 06:56 PM   #22
Al Gobbi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 996
Quote:
Originally Posted by v j stauffer View Post
Many well intentioned rules can be manipulated for personal gain. That happens often with this rule.

However, your analogy of the Padres doesn't resonate for me.

Some dedicated owners might go decades between chances at winning an important Stake.

Can see good arguments on both sides. I'd be inclined to NOT rescind the rule.
The BHA allows jockeys to ride in Group 1 races if they are serving a suspension of four days or less, provided they don't appeal it.

perhaps a similar rule could be implemented here - possibly including allowing them to ride in any stake (graded or ungraded) with an purse amount of a certain high value?
Al Gobbi is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2022, 07:19 PM   #23
v j stauffer
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by westernmassbob View Post
What exactly do you mean by that ? Like you believe jockeys are intentionally coming out of the gate and interfering with other horses so they are in a better spot? I hardly believe that’s going on because that’s extremely dangerous for both parties involved. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze....or in this case the squeeze isn’t worth the juice.
Every great race rider ever dances on a fine line between dangerous and a foul and tactical edges.

Arcaro, Cordero, Pincay, Gomez and many more.

Believe it.
__________________
"Just because she's a hitter and a thief doesn't mean she's not a good woman in all the other places" Mayrose Prizzi

Last edited by PaceAdvantage; 08-16-2022 at 09:31 AM.
v j stauffer is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2022, 07:23 PM   #24
v j stauffer
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Gobbi View Post
The BHA allows jockeys to ride in Group 1 races if they are serving a suspension of four days or less, provided they don't appeal it.

perhaps a similar rule could be implemented here - possibly including allowing them to ride in any stake (graded or ungraded) with an purse amount of a certain high value?

Here in North America a jock can ride in one "designated" race during his suspension.

If he rides in more than one he must serve another reciprocal day.

When I say reciprocal, I mean if he rides two Stakes on a Saturday he can't serve the additional day on a sleepy Wednesday.
__________________
"Just because she's a hitter and a thief doesn't mean she's not a good woman in all the other places" Mayrose Prizzi
v j stauffer is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2022, 07:41 PM   #25
Suff
Beat up 💪
 
Suff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Beach life in Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 11,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsy View Post
I saw it. But this is a General problem throughout racing and enforcing the rules . In just about every jurisdiction. Somehow the start is not equally weighted with the stretch or turns. The jockeys know this too. A lot of uncalled shenanigans at the start. I mean, if you can pull it off in the BC Classic…… that’s a message that almost anything goes. It’s not just about disciplining and punishment of an individual. The penalties are also meted out to send a message and make an example. Rules are meant to be bent in high level competition. If there’s no deterrent……. Well…,,, what do people expect?
"We don't adjudicate gate fouls".

It breaks my heart to hear. A hard pill. It probably goes down easier with a peppermint. I tell u the enemy is not peta or horse racing wrongs. The enemy is horse lovers want to be pet owners. In order to be on TV you have to agree.
__________________
Here for entertainment.
Suff is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-16-2022, 08:43 AM   #26
westernmassbob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by v j stauffer View Post

Every great race rider ever dances on a fine line between dangerous and a foul and tactical edges.

Arcaro, Cordero, Pincay, Gomez and many more.

Believe it.
I 100% agree with this during the race however at the gate break not so much. We have seen many times when a horse breaks it can take a right or left hand turn causing massive collisions. There is no way I believe this to be intentional on a jockeys behalf to gain a tactical edge. IMO the gate break is the most dangerous park of a horse race. Horses clip heels, fall down and run erratic more so at the break then any other time during a race. We will just have to agree to disagree that a jockey at that moment would intentionally create a foul to get a “ tactical “edge.

Last edited by PaceAdvantage; 08-16-2022 at 09:28 AM.
westernmassbob is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-16-2022, 10:41 AM   #27
elhelmete
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by westernmassbob View Post
I 100% agree with this during the race however at the gate break not so much. We have seen many times when a horse breaks it can take a right or left hand turn causing massive collisions. There is no way I believe this to be intentional on a jockeys behalf to gain a tactical edge. IMO the gate break is the most dangerous park of a horse race. Horses clip heels, fall down and run erratic more so at the break then any other time during a race. We will just have to agree to disagree that a jockey at that moment would intentionally create a foul to get a “ tactical “edge.
Really?
elhelmete is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-16-2022, 12:51 PM   #28
westernmassbob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by elhelmete View Post
Really?
Yes really. Also to add to that horses smashing out of gate before start, rearing up, getting stuck in get. All accident situations that can involve more then one horse at the same time. It just seems like the worst possible moment for a jockey to make a dangerous choice just to get some type of advantage. Again, a high percentage of race accidents happen at the gate.
westernmassbob is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-16-2022, 12:54 PM   #29
westernmassbob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by elhelmete View Post
Really?

“The most frequent location where injury events occurred was entering, within, or leaving the starting gate (35.1%) (Figure 2). Of all injury events, 14.2% occurred in the turns and 15.9% occurred in the home stretch or at the finish line. The most frequently reported causes of injury were being thrown from the horse (44.4%), crushed (9.6%), and flipped and pinned (7.5%). Being struck by the horse's head accounted for 5.3% of injuries, being jerked accounted for 3.7%, and falls accounted for 3.3%. The location of the injury event on the track and the cause of injury were not reported for 18.9% and 8.1% of the injuries, respectively.”
westernmassbob is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-16-2022, 01:16 PM   #30
elhelmete
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,731
So flipping in the gate should be actionable by stewards?
elhelmete is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.