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Old 02-04-2019, 03:07 PM   #9496
boxcar
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I am nor disputing that science could be used in a mechanical and unenlightened sense. I am disputing you and boxcar claiming anyone here is using it that way. Claiming we are is what is pejorative.

I do not accept that religion and science are in conflict. But my definition of religion is not Actor's. My understanding needs no Abrahamic deity. I believe Actor is commenting on the ensuing conflict when that "old man floating in the sky" is taken on it's face value and literal lowest level.

Creators are not required in my take on "religion" Nor do I exclude that possibility.

Disputing proofs for god is not "sciemntism". Whereas claiming the earth is 1/1,000,0000 times younger than it really is, or claiming infants are born evil, is not religion or even rational. It is a projection of rather superstitions minds onto reality.
Of course, you and Actor and others here have used science in "mechanical sense"! If you hadn't your science would not violate laws of logic! Your science would obey the laws of logic, which it cannot!

I have said many, many times over these years that the primary reason I don't hold to the philosophy of Atheistic Materialism is simply because that kind of world view is incoherent! It is self-defeating. It is self-contradictory. It is self-refuting! Whatever label is least offensive to you.
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:47 PM   #9497
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Of course, you and Actor and others here have used science in "mechanical sense"! If you hadn't your science would not violate laws of logic! Your science would obey the laws of logic, which it cannot!

I have said many, many times over these years that the primary reason I don't hold to the philosophy of Atheistic Materialism is simply because that kind of world view is incoherent! It is self-defeating. It is self-contradictory. It is self-refuting! Whatever label is least offensive to you.
Incoherrerent, self defeating! You have a meager understanding AT BEST OF of science, math, engineering and most modern subjects.

Howe do you know anything about whether those subjects are used properly?.
You are an intellectual throwback to the 17th century.
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Old 02-04-2019, 04:24 PM   #9498
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Incoherrerent, self defeating! You have a meager understanding AT BEST OF of science, math, engineering and most modern subjects.

Howe do you know anything about whether those subjects are used properly?.
You are an intellectual throwback to the 17th century.
No one needs a Piled High & Dry in any science, math or engineering discipline to understand the basic laws of logic which govern all human thinking -- and that, sir, would include the thinking of people who do science and tell us their conclusions.

Good science is grounded in good, solid logic -- not the other way around!
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Old 02-04-2019, 04:47 PM   #9499
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No one needs a Piled High & Dry in any science, math or engineering discipline to understand the basic laws of logic which govern all human thinking -- and that, sir, would include the thinking of people who do science and tell us their conclusions.

Good science is grounded in good, solid logic -- not the other way around!
Your meager understanding of logical fallacies prevent you from the proper application of logic too.

Re: your attempt at the flawed Aristotle/Aquinas "proof" for a prime mover for the universe as a whole.
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Old 02-04-2019, 04:59 PM   #9500
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Your meager understanding of logical fallacies prevent you from the proper application of logic too.

Re: your attempt at the flawed Aristotle/Aquinas "proof" for a prime mover for the universe as a whole.
Stay awake, old man. I never made any "attempt".
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Old 02-04-2019, 05:20 PM   #9501
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Stay awake, old man. I never made any "attempt".
Ok, thanks I inadvertently omitted foolish.
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Old 02-04-2019, 05:47 PM   #9502
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No one needs a Piled High & Dry in any science, math or engineering discipline to understand the basic laws of logic which govern all human thinking -- and that, sir, would include the thinking of people who do science and tell us their conclusions.

Good science is grounded in good, solid logic -- not the other way around!
Ah yes. Exactly like evolution. Logic and science.

There are times when I click on last page in the wasted hope that it is the last page.
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Old 02-04-2019, 06:03 PM   #9503
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Ah yes. Exactly like evolution. Logic and science.

There are times when I click on last page in the wasted hope that it is the last page.
Here's a little logic fer ya: It would be the last page for you if you never clicked on this thread again. Just sayin'... You can make that happen. That's in your control.
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Old 02-04-2019, 07:41 PM   #9504
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I don't understand why Mr. Boxcar places so much emphasis on logic, and this law of noncontradiction, and that law of such and such...?

Uncle Poppycocks is a magical, omnipotent mono deity that can just wiggle his nose and turn water into wine and walk on water and a host of other miracles that defy natural laws and are total contradictions in themselves...but they are part of the Bible, so they MUST have happened...so obey the laws of logic here, but accept miracles too...
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Old 02-04-2019, 08:06 PM   #9505
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I don't understand why Mr. Boxcar places so much emphasis on logic, and this law of noncontradiction, and that law of such and such...?

Uncle Poppycocks is a magical, omnipotent mono deity that can just wiggle his nose and turn water into wine and walk on water and a host of other miracles that defy natural laws and are total contradictions in themselves...but they are part of the Bible, so they MUST have happened...so obey the laws of logic here, but accept miracles too...
The laws of logic are like God's moral law in that both help to keep us on the straight and narrow path. Unless, of course, you like to stray in Loony Turnes Land.
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Old 02-04-2019, 09:01 PM   #9506
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Did someone SAY logic here....SERIOUSLY.....:ban g: :b ang::ban g:
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Old 02-04-2019, 09:48 PM   #9507
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The laws of logic are like God's moral law in that both help to keep us on the straight and narrow path. Unless, of course, you like to stray in Loony Turnes Land.
I still don't understand you...you maintain that the universe could not have made itself...that creation ex nihilo is impossible... The universe could not have created itself from nothing.... But with God, now HE CAN DO ANYTHING, even violate the very laws you maintain he created.... Now isn't THAT convenient... GOD can create the universe from nothing, but you never offer exactly HOW this is possible....you then just say that " HIS ways are past our ability to know or understand... ". Which is a huge cop-out and an utter crock...

Like I have said many times, your Lord, God of Israel...EXPLAINS nothing about his ways of doing things, about how he maintains the universe and about our place in it...
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:38 AM   #9508
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I still don't understand you...you maintain that the universe could not have made itself...that creation ex nihilo is impossible... The universe could not have created itself from nothing.... But with God, now HE CAN DO ANYTHING, even violate the very laws you maintain he created.... Now isn't THAT convenient... GOD can create the universe from nothing, but you never offer exactly HOW this is possible....you then just say that " HIS ways are past our ability to know or understand... ". Which is a huge cop-out and an utter crock...

Like I have said many times, your Lord, God of Israel...EXPLAINS nothing about his ways of doing things, about how he maintains the universe and about our place in it...
If we could understand the supernatural, it wouldn't be supernatural, would it?

In creation, God didn't violate any laws, rather he established the physical laws in, by and through that creation.
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:00 PM   #9509
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There are a special set of creation laws. One of those laws is that a day of rest is required at the end. Even God gets tired.
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:14 PM   #9510
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If we could understand the supernatural, it wouldn't be supernatural, would it?

In creation, God didn't violate any laws, rather he established the physical laws in, by and through that creation.
Science is interested on understanding the HOW of things...So called "Holy Scripture" is useless in this regard...

...Scripture, at best, suggests THAT certain historical events were Supernatural, but does not describe HOW the Supernatural WORKS to attain these ends...as such, therefore....Scripture will ALWAYS have a very limited place in the grand inventory of human knowledge...

There simply isn't much there of any importance and significance...a compilation of pseudo- history, false narratives, spooky prophecy, moralizing anecdotes, fiction, speculation, and falsehoods....

It is irrelevant... And that is the real reason why God is dead.
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