annoying pool manipulation today at Parx

[Robert Fischer]

already have high Takeout

now somebody else is trying to 'dictate' the odds behavior ...


thank God for Mahoning

[Robert Fischer]

Can everybody see how they did this?

they kept the at 'prohibitive' odds (open 1/9 off 3/5) until the gate opened, and then they ensured at least a 'dutch' with the


Now this behavior is unacceptable and I'm sure that it will be addressed.

If it is not, I can see something that this operation messed up on, and could have done better. If wagering manipulation is going to be allowed, I will personally go and exploit this and it will not be good ('bury') for the current pool manipulators.

[Robert Fischer]

Same silliness to open Race 8 pools ...

[cj]

Hadn't been paying attention until now, that looks pretty bad...1-9 to 4-5 late?

Curious, are bets being canceled or is someone just betting heavily early to discourage others from doing the same? The former would be bad, the latter seems fair in my opinion.

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

Can everybody see how they did this?

they kept the at 'prohibitive' odds (open 1/9 off 3/5) until the gate opened, and then they ensured at least a 'dutch' with the


Now this behavior is unacceptable and I'm sure that it will be addressed.

If it is not, I can see something that this operation messed up on, and could have done better. If wagering manipulation is going to be allowed, I will personally go and exploit this and it will not be good ('bury') for the current pool manipulators.

Betfair bots were not fooled. 7 went off 6/5 1 at 5/2

Allan

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by cj

Hadn't been paying attention until now, that looks pretty bad...1-9 to 4-5 late?

Curious, are bets being canceled or is someone just betting heavily early to discourage others from doing the same? The former would be bad, the latter seems fair in my opinion.

I agree - a big bettor at MNR likes to pull this move, too. By making the 5 look like horrible value, the big bettor ended up with a $3.80 winner, as less than $7k of the final (betting in last 5 mins) $45.6k was bet on the 5. Smart move. If the money was pulled out, the ADW should cutoff the player, assuming it wasn't a one-off mistake.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by cj

Hadn't been paying attention until now, that looks pretty bad...1-9 to 4-5 late?

Curious, are bets being canceled or is someone just betting heavily early to discourage others from doing the same? The former would be bad, the latter seems fair in my opinion.

I honestly don't have evidence of any cancelled wagers.
If there were, they were small in order to offset next to last or last 'flash' info. There may well have been no cancellation.

Yes, there was definitely heavy early betting to discourage betting and dictate a price on a strong heavy favorite.

...
I respect your opinion.

My opinion? = There is an 'etiquette' element.


This type of behavior, where the pool is completely dominated, could in theory ruin our game. Imagine this stuff routinely at Saratoga, in the Derby, etc... Thankfully, it seems to be more viable in a smaller track/pool setting where other whales aren't going to react or retaliate.

To me, not everything 'legal' is cool... Certain etiquette ...

Gonna go walk the dog and listen to the TimeformUS pacecast... BTW, what did you have HIDDEN SCROLL for the TFUS? was it nearly as high as the winners?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

I honestly don't have evidence of any cancelled wagers.
If there were, they were small in order to offset next to last or last 'flash' info. There may well have been no cancellation.

Yes, there was definitely heavy early betting to discourage betting and dictate a price on a strong heavy favorite.

...
I respect your opinion.

My opinion? = There is an 'etiquette' element.


This type of behavior, where the pool is completely dominated, could in theory ruin our game. Imagine this stuff routinely at Saratoga, in the Derby, etc... Thankfully, it seems to be more viable in a smaller track/pool setting where other whales aren't going to react or retaliate.

Are you saying someone betting $20k to win should not bet into the PRX pools? Would you have preferred a last second $20k bet, where the odds on the 5 would have gone from 5/2 to 4/5 as the race was underway? I think the former scenario is much more transparent.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike

Are you saying someone betting $20k to win should not bet into the PRX pools? Would you have preferred a last second $20k bet, where the odds on the 5 would have gone from 5/2 to 4/5 as the race was underway? I think the former scenario is much more transparent.

No problem with someone betting $20k to win.
Good Luck!


I'm talking about the market being completely dominated by a whale who then dutches multiple horses into a rebate in the last flash.


Probably completely 'legal'.

Wilt Chamberlain initially dunked some free throws and it was perfectly within the rules, until a ruling was made.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

No problem with someone betting $20k to win.
Good Luck!


I'm talking about the market being completely dominated by a whale who then dutches multiple horses into a rebate in the last flash.


Probably completely 'legal'.

Wilt Chamberlain initially dunked some free throws and it was perfectly within the rules, until a ruling was made.

Robert, I think you're probably right, that someone was cancelling bets at the last minute to manipulate the pools. It's been done before at Parx and other tracks.

However, the Wilt Chamberlain thing is an interesting example.

Chamberlain never dunked a free throw (which was legal at the time, just running and jumping from behind the line like Michael Jordan would later do in the NBA dunk contest) in public. Rumor had it he could do it, and supposedly Wilt maybe once did it in a scrimmage. Still, that was enough to spread rumors and get competing coaches concerned, so the NCAA rules committee got dunking a free throw banned even though it had never happened.

Similarly, your screencaps don't show cancelled bets. Like Wilt's dunk, there probably were some, but I'd feel better at calling for action if I saw the pools go from $20K to $15K. (In race 8, the final total to win was $31K.) Maybe someone has that evidence, I don't know.

[Unicorn]

When it comes to wagering and you follow the rules that are set, I see nothing wrong with trying to deceive people from betting on a certain horse. Horse racing is a tricky game. I see this happen a lot even with smaller amounts of cash. I'm fine with it though as long these "so called whales" aren't betting after the cut off time during the race. I think the exchange in New Jersey has a lot of affect on this type of wagering. Personally if it's allowed in New Jersey, why not offer it to other states as well?

[Unicorn]

Another thing that bugs me about pools is the way the money is collected. For example when I'm betting South Africa tracks in the morning. US players have there own pool, which is way smaller then the actual pool at the track. Somehow if the pools were commingled I think it would maybe be easier to keep track of, but I'm kind of unsure about this. Thoughts?

[Unicorn]

The thing about having pools separate is that the main pool reflects odds on the smaller pool and sometimes the payouts are affected cause of this.

[Unicorn]

I can't tell you how many times Iv'e had to call TVG about something like that and get some bs excuse, when really probably something fishy is going on with the odds.

[Redboard]

I've got suckerred at Parx a couple times with this.
10 minutes before PT, somebody put a large win bet on what me and the ML figures to be the 5th or 6th option, but the show pool shows he is the 5th or 6th option. So I say to myself, the horse is the betting win favorite, why not put some money on him to show? Figuring I'll get back 3-1. I'm sure you know how it turns out.
The show pool, along with the horizontal will-pays, gives the best indication of what the final odds are going to be.