Bob Baffert suspended 90 days, fined $7,500, Medina Spirit DQed from Kentucky Derby

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by acorn54

what i take from this whole fiasco, is the black eye the game of racing gets. the general public just perceives the game as a venue for suckers and degenerates who can't control their gambling addiction, even when blatant cheating goes on.

IMO, the biggest undeserved black eye for the sport has been that so many people hate this guy and want to see him fall so badly (for all sorts of reasons) that "getting him" seems to have become more important than explaining the difference between what Servis/Navarro got busted for and what this positive was for. In much of the public's mind, it's all the same thing. That's a really bad disconnect.

Horses are like every other professional athlete. They get aches, pains, infections, pull things, tear things, bleed etc.. They need to be treated for these ailments. It's on the vets and industry to ensure that the treatments are safe and effective for the horses and are not abused by connections to get an edge. If there's a positive, they should dole out a punishment equal to the offense(s), but they should also try to protect the reputation of the industry by explaining how horses are treated for their various health issues what these various overages are about. You can explain reality and also punish offenders.

If you think someone is guilty of more than just using therapeutics carelessly or to gain an edge (and we could make a list of guys that are winning almost every day that are almost certainly doing more than that) you have to prove it.

[acorn54]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

IMO, the biggest undeserved black eye for the sport has been that so many people hate this guy and want to see him fall so badly (for all sorts of reasons) that "getting him" seems to have become more important than explaining the difference between what Servis/Navarro got busted for and what this positive was for. In much of the public's mind, it's all the same thing. That's a really bad disconnect.

Horses are like every other professional athlete. They get aches, pains, infections, pull things, tear things, bleed etc.. They need to be treated for these ailments. It's on the vets and industry to ensure that the treatments are safe and effective for the horses and are not abused by connections to get an edge. If there's a positive, they should dole out a punishment equal to the offense(s), but they should also try to protect the reputation of the industry by explaining how horses are treated for their various health issues what these various overages are about. You can explain reality and also punish offenders.

If you think someone is guilty of more than just using therapeutics carelessly or to gain an edge (and we could make a list of guys that are winning almost every day that are almost certainly doing more than that) you have to prove it.

i agree with you 100 percent, i was just saying the general public "perceives", that horse races are "fixed" and alot of monkey business goes on, when the press reports incidents such as this.

[Andy Asaro]

There are plenty of hard facts and hard rulings against this guy along with dozens of dead horses. The CHRB covered up for this guy for a long long time.

Of all the people who deserve sympathy and forgiveness this guy is NOT one of them.

Twitter

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

If you think someone is guilty of more than just using therapeutics carelessly or to gain an edge (and we could make a list of guys that are winning almost every day that are almost certainly doing more than that) you have to prove it.

Actually, the point of a drug testing regime is so you don't have to prove it. That's why everyone is rightfully so upset that Kamila Valiyeva was allowed to compete in Beijing. The notion of drug testing is instead of forcing everyone to prove intent, which is often impossible to prove and which cheaters exploit to get away with things, we just give people a list of substances and say "don't have any of this in you, or more than X of this in you, and we don't give a crap how it got there". And if you have the list, and you test positive- well it's fair. You were warned.

That's really the only way things can work if you want a clean sport.

[Bustin Stones]

The public is aware that there will never be tests that uncover every chemical, blood doping or other condition that guarantee a level field. All horse racing can do is strive to make it really hard to get away with. I wish we had an inexpensive test that would allow them to test every horse before a race and disqualify that horse before it effects gamblers.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Bustin Stones

The public is aware that there will never be tests that uncover every chemical, blood doping or other condition that guarantee a level field. All horse racing can do is strive to make it really hard to get away with. I wish we had an inexpensive test that would allow them to test every horse before a race and disqualify that horse before it effects gamblers.

I actually wonder if it's possible with modern technology to do rapid urine tests that would allow dopers to be intercepted before the result becomes official. This would obviously cost some amount of money, but it might be worth it, especially since doping owners and trainers are allowed to bet on their horses.

[Hoops McCann]

what a sad ending for Medina Spirit

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Hoops McCann

what a sad ending for Medina Spirit

Absolutely. He was a gutsy, game horse who died too young.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

we just give people a list of substances and say "don't have any of this in you, or more than X of this in you, and we don't give a crap how it got there". And if you have the list, and you test positive- well it's fair. You were warned.

That's really the only way things can work if you want a clean sport.

That's exactly what's happening in this case so far. The horse got DQ'd and Baffert got a suspension way more severe than the same infraction would generate for trainer John Doe in some 25K claimer. That's because he's Bob Baffert, it was the KY Derby, and he had a recent history of similar therapeutic overages in big races.

My point is that inside the horse racing world people understand the difference between a trace therapeutic overage and PEDs. However, we have a partially clueless media and public that thinks this was more cheating on the same level as Servis/Navarro. We also have organizations looking to spin anything and everything into a disaster to damage us.

I'm simply saying some of the reputational damage was self inflicted.

Baffert himself did some damage with his media tour. Others in the industry are so hell bent on taking him down due to speculations or for other reasons they didn't really make an effort to explain that this overage was for a legal drug in an amount that most people think had no impact on the outcome. Do what you have to do for the integrity of the sport but at least try to explain it so the damage isn't worse than it should be.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

My point is that inside the horse racing world people understand the difference between a trace therapeutic overage and PEDs.

I know I will never win this argument on a horse racing site, but I think one of the fundamental mistakes horse racing insiders make and drug testers, in contrast, get right, is that there is often no distinction between a therapeutic and a PED, and that strict drug testing regimes basically take the power to get therapy out of the hands of participants.

I've mentioned this before, but numerous track and field athletes have tested positive for cold medication and gotten 2 year suspensions. Cold medication. Why does track and field do this? Because common over the counter cold medications have performance enhancing characteristics. So what is a track and field athlete supposed to do when they get a cold? Well, one of two things: either (1) take a medication that is not on the banned substance list, or (2) go to the testing authority or sanctioning body and get permission to take the substance, at controlled dosage, under that authority/body's supervision.

Horse racing could duplicate this. It would cost a ton of money, but we could duplicate this. And under that system, if Bob Baffert wanted to give his horse a medication on the list, he wouldn't be allowed to do it. He'd have to go to the regulator, and document the horse's condition, and then the regulator gives the horse the medication.

The point is, this is the sort of thing that sports that are serious about drugs do. Because cheaters hide behind "therapeutic" medication. I bet you Bob Baffert has carefully studied the performance enhancing characteristics of numerous such substances, and knows exactly what to tell regulators in terms of what his horses "need" so he can use the drugs. Just like trainers were lying about "bleeding" to get their horses on Lasix before the rules were relaxed.

During the recent Olympics, Johnny Weir was talking about how from age 13 on, as a figure skater, he had to take random drug tests at all hours of the day and night and he was required to regulate every substance that went into his body. It's not simply a matter of "oh, that was therapy, that's OK". Because the moment you do that, the cheaters exploit it.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You should make this your permanent signature here...will save you typing the same thing all the time.

He's relying on the old "if I keep saying it, someone might believe me" theory. The problem is that nobody has paid attention to him in years.

[davew]

from Paulicks article->


The unrefuted and undisputed facts established at the hearing were: (1) Medina Spirit was treated with an ointment, not an injection; (2) the trace amount of betamethasone detected could not have affected the horse in any way; and (3) the trace amount of betamethasone detected could not possibly have affected the outcome of the race.





'The unrefuted and undisputed facts established at the hearing' is an awfully strong statement, almost like 100% certainty or settled science.


A more accurate wording would be 'claims presented' ...

The claims presented at the hearing were:

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by the little guy

He's relying on the old "if I keep saying it, someone might believe me" theory. The problem is that nobody has paid attention to him in years.

If I keep saying it? No, but courts have kept saying it, which makes your position (which you apparently continue to hold to despite all NYRA's losses in court on the issue) really ridiculous.

NYRA is part of the government. Does NYRA literally require you not to admit this or something?

[VeryOldMan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

NYRA is part of the government.

I know people love to bust on dilanesp here, but this is the key distinction re NYRA. NYRA can't 86 people like private actors can. It's a unit of the NY state government, which brings equal protection etc. into play.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by VeryOldMan

I know people love to bust on dilanesp here, but this is the key distinction re NYRA. NYRA can't 86 people like private actors can. It's a unit of the NY state government, which brings equal protection etc. into play.

Incorrect. NY State owns the land. That's the situation. The person you quoted runs around acting the expert on things he has, at best, a small amount of knowledge about. Hey, he's a lawyer, I get it. NYRA is NOT a "unit of the NY State government."