Huge problem with racing

[rrbauer]

Look at opening day at Fairplex (today, Friday 9/5). Horses going from a year on mostly poly to a 5/8 mile dirt track, good field sizes and you had two maiden $13 horses, a 4-1, and everything else (10 races) was 5/2 or lower including three odds-on winners. No wonder that they keep dreaming up new bets.

[bettheoverlay]

Does anyone have any real data on avg field size and avg payoff comparing now to yesteryear? I download 6-8 tracks a day and I'm getting 8.25 avg field size $12.60 avg payoff for the last 12 months with the winter months having the largest avg and summer months the smallest avg.

I started going to the races in 1972 and I seem to recall small fields being prevalent then as well. Obviously no simulcasting, so my experience was live racing at Delaware, Philly, Garden State, Monmouth and Atlantic City. I actually still have a slew of programs from those years and the fields look pretty small in a random sampling outside of turf and maiden claimers. I must have missed the halcyon days of 10 - 12 horses in every race. I would think avg payoff to field size in the 70s is probably about the same as today as well.

[misscashalot]

Originally Posted by bettheoverlay

Does anyone have any real data on avg field size and avg payoff comparing now to yesteryear? I download 6-8 tracks a day and I'm getting 8.25 avg field size $12.60 avg payoff for the last 12 months with the winter months having the largest avg and summer months the smallest avg.

I started going to the races in 1972 and I seem to recall small fields being prevalent then as well. Obviously no simulcasting, so my experience was live racing at Delaware, Philly, Garden State, Monmouth and Atlantic City. I actually still have a slew of programs from those years and the fields look pretty small in a random sampling outside of turf and maiden claimers. I must have missed the halcyon days of 10 - 12 horses in every race. I would think avg payoff to field size in the 70s is probably about the same as today as well.

On the NYRA circuit

1991
Races 2757
Average Bet Entires Per Race 8.4
Average Winning Odds $5.40

2007
2232
7.89
$5.28

[boomman]

Originally Posted by misscashalot

I have never seen a sport or betting activity where the fans/bettors complain as much as the horse player. It seems that 1/2 the posts here are negative.

mcal:I think most of us on this board (and I can personally attest to this): LOVE Horse racing. I am not here to complain about it as such, but to do anything I can to make it better! Discussions like this and the formation of HANA are a way of talking about the problems that exist (so as not to bury our head in the sand) but I seriously doubt any of us would take the time if we didn't want to do everything in our power to improve the game we love. I can assure you I wouldn't!

Boomer
'

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by cj

You rarely hear this one mentioned, but isn't the constant parade of chalk and short fields a total turn off to possible new players in this game?

Here is one example. The last two days at Woodbine produced the following win payouts:

6.70, 8.60, 3.00, 5.00, 6.10, 4.90, 6.80, 3.60, 3.80, 3.10, 3.10, 5.50, 8.10, 8.40, 10.10, 5.80, 4.20

How is that going to get anyone excited about the game? 17 races over two days, and an average winner paying $5.69. That is little more than getting a blackjack in the casino!

This isn't to pick on Woodbine. It happens around the country. Of course it doesn't happen every day. It does happen often enough to think these racing secretaries need to put on some more competitive races.

Perhgaps the pencils are little sharper and the racing a bit more formful at Woodbine than in other places. I will however concur with your obs that short fields make it tough to draw in newbs.

[thoroughbred]

It's all a matter of perspective.

We all want to hit it big.

But look at even the $3.10 payout, the lowest payout on your list. That's a 55% profit.

Yes, I know, it may not be enough to cover possible future losses.

But a novice might think this is pretty good. Maybe in some sense it is.

[lamboguy]

on thursday i was betting penn national. the win pool on the third race had $28,000 in it. i watched bet fair, that place got $58,000 matched on the win side.
i am told that if you are a canadien resident, you can have an account with BET FAIR. maybe there are people in the united states that have friends that live north of our border, or maybe even south of our border, or maybe even across the pond.

when you make bets on BET FAIR, changing odds in front of your eyes don't mean anything, because you have locked in you price. it doesn't matter that someone else might have an edge on you , because hypothetically you are happy with your price before the race starts.

the company makes it money when the winner pays a 2% commision.

race tracks in this country pay the purses and maintain the tracks, BET FAIR makes money and pays no expenses.

that is a great business model. my message to the folks at the tracknet, nyra, churchill, and private owners of race tracks, you better sit down with alot of coffee and figure this thing out. if you want you can hire me to do your thinking. i will get it right , i promise you.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Chalk definitely might get the novice interested, it did for me when I was new to racing, didn't know about handicapping and was interested in just gambling. It took a while before I learned that the game and handicapping could actually be learned, and sent me on my long handicapping journey. So who knows, maybe some newbe chalk-eaters will learn the game and cash a few tickets and get interest in the game, and then (when that doesn't work!) learn to become chalk-beaters someday.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

on thursday i was betting penn national. the win pool on the third race had $28,000 in it. i watched bet fair, that place got $58,000 matched on the win side.
i am told that if you are a canadien resident, you can have an account with BET FAIR. maybe there are people in the united states that have friends that live north of our border, or maybe even south of our border, or maybe even across the pond.

when you make bets on BET FAIR, changing odds in front of your eyes don't mean anything, because you have locked in you price. it doesn't matter that someone else might have an edge on you , because hypothetically you are happy with your price before the race starts.

the company makes it money when the winner pays a 2% commision.

race tracks in this country pay the purses and maintain the tracks, BET FAIR makes money and pays no expenses.

that is a great business model. my message to the folks at the tracknet, nyra, churchill, and private owners of race tracks, you better sit down with alot of coffee and figure this thing out. if you want you can hire me to do your thinking. i will get it right , i promise you.

this is a good post.

They have given ignorance and short-sightedness a really fair opportunity and it just hasn't panned out.

It starts with the business model.

If a group of bright students at one of the nation's top business schools did a project with something like horseracing (lets not call it horseracing, and just treat it as a hypothetical) - they would design a totally different business model.

You would see viral marketing , internet marketing , guerrilla marketing, and most of all a systematic exploitation of American's and the world's "response" to TELEVISION and mass media...

Things like takeout and wager types would be calculated and designed by actuaries and maybe even have "A" Customers like high-rolling professional gamblers in mind...

The owners would be "running this 'league'"...

ok , my midnight snack is ready

[cj's dad]

Originally Posted by misscashalot

I have never seen a sport or betting activity where the fans/bettors complain as much as the horse player. It seems that 1/2 the posts here are negative.

In 2 words - MOVE ON !!

[dav4463]

I had a $51.40 winner last week. Just one of these makes up for a lot of chalk.

[barn32]

Originally Posted by cj

You rarely hear this one mentioned, but isn't the constant parade of chalk and short fields a total turn off to possible new players in this game?

Here is one example. The last two days at Woodbine produced the following win payouts:

6.70, 8.60, 3.00, 5.00, 6.10, 4.90, 6.80, 3.60, 3.80, 3.10, 3.10, 5.50, 8.10, 8.40, 10.10, 5.80, 4.20

Try Evangeline Downs. Full fields and nice prices.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by cj

You rarely hear this one mentioned, but isn't the constant parade of chalk and short fields a total turn off to possible new players in this game?

Here is one example. The last two days at Woodbine produced the following win payouts:

This is the one reason why I have hardly played since the spring..... spot plays only............. I am not going to spend 40 hours a week at the computer for 10 plays a week.............

[bettheoverlay]

Originally Posted by cj

Here is one example. The last two days at Woodbine produced the following win payouts:

6.70, 8.60, 3.00, 5.00, 6.10, 4.90, 6.80, 3.60, 3.80, 3.10, 3.10, 5.50, 8.10, 8.40, 10.10, 5.80, 4.20

Yesterday's P4 at Woodbine included the $5.50, $810, $8.40 $10.10. I apoligize if my math is off. P4 returned ($1) $903 - Parlay $235. First P3 returned $167 - Parlay $47. Second P3 returned $295 - Parlay $85. That might impress newbies.

[cj]

Originally Posted by bettheoverlay

Yesterday's P4 at Woodbine included the $5.50, $810, $8.40 $10.10. I apoligize if my math is off. P4 returned ($1) $903 - Parlay $235. First P3 returned $167 - Parlay $47. Second P3 returned $295 - Parlay $85. That might impress newbies.

It is possible, but a lot of newbies aren't playing P3s and P4s. Maybe they should be. Maybe part of the problem is we have WAY TOO MANY pools on every race.