Curlin vs Gun Runner

[exactatom]

Curlin by as much as he wants.

Curlin raced against a great crop of animals his 3 year old year. Gun Runner's competition is average at best.
Curlin was very slow in developing his career. In fact the Derby was only his 3rd or 4th start.
Until last Saturday, Gun Runner never closed the deal at 10 furlongs.
People keep mentioning how great Arrogate was. If you look at his past performances he really only won 4 races in dominating fashion. They just happened to be worth $17 million to him.
Gun Runner is a little small physically. Curlin has much better confirmation.
Both of them gave up leads in big races. Curlin in the Belmont, Gun Runner in the Dubai World Cup.

[Afleet]

Originally Posted by Valuist

Gun Runner is a very good horse, but he's no Curlin.

Could Gun Runner beat Ravens Pass on the poly?

[Zaf]

Originally Posted by cj

Here is TimeformUS

Thanks

Z

[Zaf]

Originally Posted by Mc990

You can find both of their sheets posted on the TG message board shortly after the Woodward. GR a little faster on his best. Remember though, horses have gotten a tad faster over the last 10 years... despite popular opinion to the contrary...

Yes its like comparing Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire to Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig. They are all great

Z

[dilanesp]

I think Gun Runner is extremely good. Part of the reason I know this is because I know how good Collected is at Del Mar.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by cj

Wasn't the inside pretty darn bad for the DWC too?

That was a strange track for sure. A lot more horses made wide moves from well back than I would say are typical of the experience in the US.

The last thing in the world I want to do is knock a horse like Arrogate, but imho, that particular performance, while visually mind boggling, may not have been quite as great as it looked. I believe I tried to make that case right after the race.

1. Gun Runner may have been mildly compromised
2. As tough as that start was for Arrogate, the track probably made it less difficult to overcome than it looked.

Also, horses like Neolithic (and Shaman Ghost in the Pegasus), while nothing to sneeze at, have turned out to not be world beaters.

I have mixed feelings about Arrogate.

His Travers was mind bending. It was one of the best performances I have ever seen by a 3yo.

His win over California Chrome was also huge, but I disagree with the consensus opinion about their relative trips because of how that track was playing, their rides, and the weights. IMO those 2 were very close.

His Pacific Classic was fine. Collected ran big and was undefeated on a fast track until Gun Runner.

His Classic wasn't as bad as people think considering the rough start and spending some time on the bad rail.

I think Arrogate was brilliant for a short period of time, (especially stamina wise), but I think the hype got a little ahead of the actual performances. A horse can be great for awhile or simply great - without being an all time great.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I think Arrogate was brilliant for a short period of time, (especially stamina wise), but I think the hype got a little ahead of the actual performances.

Maybe it's b/c he wasn't 100% sound (quarter cracks reported, at least in the past)?

[castaway01]

Here's a totally gutless take but one I actually believe: if they raced 10 times Curlin would win 6 or 7.

[Inner Dirt]

Gun Runner easily at any distance. Curlin was a great horse but isn't he like 12 years old? He would be lucky to beat $10k claimers at that age.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

Gun Runner easily at any distance. Curlin was a great horse but isn't he like 12 years old? He would be lucky to beat $10k claimers at that age.

ugh You got me!

It's also the same with today's athletes.

As dominant a player as Shaq was, he would be lucky to average 10 points a game in today's NBA...
























.







Still not bad for 45.

[bisket]

I just think the trip to Dubia did Arrogate in. It's not the first time this has happened.... He had three tops in a row than that trip, and another top... It was a lot to ask.

[Secondbest]

Originally Posted by bisket

I just think the trip to Dubia did Arrogate in. It's not the first time this has happened.... He had three tops in a row than that trip, and another top... It was a lot to ask.

I agree

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Secondbest

I agree

Thirded. I know not everyone bounces off of Dubai, but enough horses have done it (or have declined sometime after a trip to Dubai) that I think it should be taken seriously as a real phenomenon.

It's just a lot different than shipping, say, from New York to California. The time zone change is enough to interfere with a horse's circadian rhythms. That's a lot of time up in an airplane with thin air and a confined stall. The sand consistency is different. And the race itself is really hard- it draws a great field.

[Valuist]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

This is the one thing I heard no one speak about. When Gun Runner faced Arrogate in the Dubai World Cup, the track was muddy. Just like Easy Goer, Gun Runner was not nearly at his best on a wet track.

But if one is talking about the overall quality of a horse, ability to adapt is part of it. I think Curlin also won on grass, and I believe was placed in a Grade 1 or 2 on Belmont turf.

[Valuist]

Originally Posted by Afleet

Could Gun Runner beat Ravens Pass on the poly?

I don't know. We know Gun Runner wasn't at his best in slop. Could Gun Runner have been Graded stakes placed on grass like Curlin? Poly is the least relevant surface of all.