Andre Dawson???

[Pace Cap'n]

The greatest HOF injustice is not the election of Andre Dawson, or the banishment of Pete Rose. Rather, it is the exclusion of Bert Blyleven.

A good case for his inclusion is made here...


baseballanalysts.com/archives/2005/12/the_hall_of_fam.php

[cj]

I imagine many haven't forgotten the spitting incident with Alomar which probably kept him out the first time.

[Bubbles]

Pace, you make an excellent point with Blyleven. The benchmark has always been 300 wins, but now, the mark is almost impossible to reach. It's time to start rewarding those who came close, like Blyleven and, more recently, Mussina, instead of finding ways to exclude them.

Also, I wouldn't be shocked if the Veteran's Committee found a way to induct Tommy John. He won 288 games, and the surgery he opted to undergo ended up changing the game and lengthening the careers of several players.

[DanG]

The shame of it is Dawson played the last x# of years virtually without knees; thanks to the concrete that ate up so many players in Montréal.

[Valuist]

Originally Posted by DanG

The shame of it is Dawson played the last x# of years virtually without knees; thanks to the concrete that ate up so many players in Montréal.

Absolutely. Not that dissimilar from Mantle in that his knees kept him from putting up even bigger numbers than what he did.

BTW, Dawson did something you'd never see today. In early 1987, he went to Dallas Green, then GM of the Cubs, gave him a contract and told Green that HE could fill in the amount. Green ended up filling it out for $500K, a pittance even 23 years ago for the MVP of the league that season. Can't imagine many players doing that nowadays.

[swami13]

Originally Posted by Valuist

Absolutely. Not that dissimilar from Mantle in that his knees kept him from putting up even bigger numbers than what he did.

BTW, Dawson did something you'd never see today. In early 1987, he went to Dallas Green, then GM of the Cubs, gave him a contract and told Green that HE could fill in the amount. Green ended up filling it out for $500K, a pittance even 23 years ago for the MVP of the league that season. Can't imagine many players doing that nowadays.

Great Point, an athlete signing a blank contract...special.

[ElKabong]

Originally Posted by Pace Cap'n

The greatest HOF injustice is not the election of Andre Dawson, or the banishment of Pete Rose. Rather, it is the exclusion of Bert Blyleven.

A good case for his inclusion is made here...


baseballanalysts.com/archives/2005/12/the_hall_of_fam.php

Best curveball pitcher I have ever seen. When he was w/ the Rangers he never had any support from the lineup. Lost a bunch of 2-1 and 3-2 games, never complained....That guy was pure greatness on the mound.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by ElKabong [QUOTE

]Best curveball pitcher I have ever seen.

When he was w/ the Rangers he never had any support from the lineup. Lost a bunch of 2-1 and 3-2 games, never complained....That guy was pure greatness on the mound.[/QUOTE]

Apparently you never saw Koufax's yellow hammer.

[bisket]

when you think of blyleven you think of the deuce automatically. he's a hall of famer no doubt. he was a pitcher; not a meathead thrower. i can't think of a pitcher nowadays with a curveball like blyleven, but umpires don't call the curveball correctly anymore. i think thats why you don't see as many pitchers with it anymore. the best curveballs rise and then fall. if a pitcher throws it correctly when it rises its tough to lay off it. as a hitter if it doesn't rise you can time it and hit it much easier. when it rises it makes it difficult to judge where its going to be when it falls. i don't know of a pitcher currently that has a curve that rises and falls.

[cj]

Blyleven was very lucky his arm held up. That pitch is very tough on the arm. Gregg Olson had an incredible curve ball, similar to his, but his arm just couldn't last.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by bisket

when you think of blyleven you think of the deuce automatically. he's a hall of famer no doubt. he was a pitcher; not a meathead thrower. i can't think of a pitcher nowadays with a curveball like blyleven, but umpires don't call the curveball correctly anymore. i think thats why you don't see as many pitchers with it anymore. the best curveballs rise and then fall. if a pitcher throws it correctly when it rises its tough to lay off it. as a hitter if it doesn't rise you can time it and hit it much easier. when it rises it makes it difficult to judge where its going to be when it falls. i don't know of a pitcher currently that has a curve that rises and falls.

Actually it would violate the laws of physics for a pitch to rise as you describe.These ++ pitches, 4 seam fastballs and power curves don't drop as quickly as lesser pitches and thus create the optical illusion of hopping or rising.

[bisket]

Originally Posted by cj

Blyleven was very lucky his arm held up. That pitch is very tough on the arm. Gregg Olson had an incredible curve ball, similar to his, but his arm just couldn't last.

actually the curveball isn't hard on the arm when thrown correctly. the overhand curve that blyleven and gregg olsen threw doesn't hurt the arm anymore than the overhand fastball. its the pitchers that throw 3/4 that throw the curve that get arm injuries. the 3/4 curveball; or the slurve as mike flanagen and scott mcgregor are famous for; is the pitch that hurts the arm. its action is similar to the slider with a much larger break, but is thrown similar to the curve out of a 3/4 delivery.