Withholding

[Jeff P]

Andy,

I understand what you are saying. And yes, in my opinion, your idea of scrapping the current 300-1 $600.00 requirement in favor of a (larger) net win requirement makes more sense to me.

Another thing that makes more sense to me would be to change the tax code so that reporting/withholding of gambling winnings for horse racing is made identical to gambling winnings that take place in a casino. And yes, I did get myself invited onto a conference call between the NTRA and their lobbyists and I did in fact make that suggestion (which apparently did not go anywhere.)

Please understand, it's not up to me (or HANA.) We are not the ones lobbying for the proposal as written.

The proposal as written comes from lobbying efforts paid for by the NTRA. I first became aware of the NTRA's lobbying efforts on this issue back in 2009. (So I know they've been at it for a good 5 years, maybe longer.)

When the NTRA reached out to me yesterday and asked me to lend HANA's support to the current proposal, it took me all of about 2 seconds to get behind them.

The proposal as written may not be ideal, but in my opinion it is definitely better than what we horseplayers face now. If there's an outside chance of getting it done - count me in.


-jp

.

[Longshot6977]

So this new proposal would basically do away with the need to make e.g. five $1 tri bets or 3 separate tickets for a $1 superfecta? ? We would just get a $5 tri ticket or one $3 ticket with our super? Am I reading this right?

[Jeff P]

Under this proposal:

1. Ticket Structure:
You would still be able to place any and all of your bets using the base wager amt of your choice so long as your base wager amt is at or above the min amt for that bet. For example, at a track offering $0.10 supers, you could bet in various increments of $0.10, $0.20, $0.30, $0.50, $1.00, $2.00, $5.00, etc. In other words, under this proposal there is no requirement that you the bettor change the way you do your current ticket structure.

2. Reporting:
What changes under this proposal is how winnings are reported. Currently, if you bet 1000 unique $0.10 superfecta combinations on a single horse and one of them is the winning combination and it pays $800.00, the IRS requires the track to issue a W2G because the total amount wagered per the tax code is the lone winning ten cent superfecta combo and $800.00 divided by ten cents is more than 300-1. (Despite the fact that the amt you bet was $100.00 and the amount you collect nets to just 7-1.)

Under the proposed new rules (using the above example) the full $100.00 that was bet would be used in the 300-1 reporting test. And because the amt collected and the amt bet nets out to 7-1, which is less than 300-1, a W2G form would not be issued.


-jp

.

[highnote]

It is good to see the various industry entities working together for the common goal of changing the withholding tax requirements.

equibase sent me an email about this saying that "5 minutes could increase wagering by 1 billion dollars."

I presume equibase think handle will increase if there is less tax taken out of the winning wagers of horseplayers. So they want horseplayers to take 5 minutes to go online and support this position.

Hey... Haven't HANA been saying the same thing since their inception?

Less takeout will equal greater handle.

If racetrack management deny this fact then they are hypocrites.

[whodoyoulike]

Didn't Barry Meadow propose a similar solution on this web site a couple years ago?

People discussed how the current law is encouraging bettors to structure their bets to get around the withholding requirements i.e., causes them to devise ways to cheat the gov't etc. This topic and solution sure sounds familiar.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Gallop58

What are the chances of this approach bearing fruit?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...hholding-taxes

Should we all be signing the petition? Would any additional mobilization be useful?

I don't get what the fuss is about. Gambling losses are tax deductible up to the amount of winnings. What matter how much they withhold? You get it back on April 15 if you keep good records and don't falsify your return.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by Actor

I don't get what the fuss is about. Gambling losses are tax deductible up to the amount of winnings. What matter how much they withhold? You get it back on April 15 if you keep good records and don't falsify your return.

Let's say a player bets $2,000 on a pick 6 and wins $10,000. 30% of $10,000 is withheld by the IRS before the player gets a $7,000 payoff. However, let's say only one $2 ticket of the $2,000 that the player bet was a winning ticket. Even though the player had a net profit of $8,000, 30% is withheld from the gross return of $10,000 -- which is $600 more than would have been withheld if the tax was only withheld on the net return.

This means $600 was taken out of circulation for until a player gets a refund after the player's taxes are filed. If the player files for an extension for time to pay because of any number of reasons, the player might not get a refund until November. If the pick 6 was hit on January 1, 2014, this refund may not be received until November 2015 -- 23 months later!

So that $600 is unavailable for 23 months! Now imagine if the player's main bet is the pick 6, tens of thousands of dollars may be out of circulation.

[therussmeister]

Originally Posted by Actor

I don't get what the fuss is about. Gambling losses are tax deductible up to the amount of winnings. What matter how much they withhold? You get it back on April 15 if you keep good records and don't falsify your return.

Apparently some bettors that specialize in pick 6s literally run out of money towards the end of the year and must sit out until they get their refund, even though they had a profitable year.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by highnote

Let's say a player bets $2,000 on a pick 6 and wins $10,000. 30% of $10,000 is withheld by the IRS before the player gets a $7,000 payoff. However, let's say only one $2 ticket of the $2,000 that the player bet was a winning ticket. Even though the player had a net profit of $8,000, 30% is withheld from the gross return of $10,000 -- which is $600 more than would have been withheld if the tax was only withheld on the net return.

This means $600 was taken out of circulation for until a player gets a refund after the player's taxes are filed. If the player files for an extension for time to pay because of any number of reasons, the player might not get a refund until November. If the pick 6 was hit on January 1, 2014, this refund may not be received until November 2015 -- 23 months later!

So that $600 is unavailable for 23 months! Now imagine if the player's main bet is the pick 6, tens of thousands of dollars may be out of circulation.

I can see that this might be a problem for someone whose only income stream is the pick 6 but for myself I could offset this by arranging to have less withheld from my other income streams.

[highnote]

Track management wants money won from betting to be churned rather than sitting in the hands of the IRS. This makes sense.

One easy way to generate more churn is to lower the takeout tax. The effect is the same and would be felt by players on every winning wager -- not just when players hit the big score.

[ronsmac]

Whatever happened to the push to get the withholding thresholds raised? I haven't heard anything in months.

[infrontby1]

With any luck, there may be a response after the next president gets voted in.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by highnote

Track management wants money won from betting to be churned rather than sitting in the hands of the IRS. This makes sense.

One easy way to generate more churn is to lower the takeout tax. The effect is the same and would be felt by players on every winning wager -- not just when players hit the big score.

I think I would question 'track mgmt' wanting churn or even knowing what it is. A perfect example is a force out of a massive jackpot bet, tracks continually Make the closing day bet as hard as possible, that strategy prices out many people from having any shot and large payouts go into the pockets of the same people. If the carryover is massive and the track specifically cards small fields and obvious 'singles' not only will the handle be bigger but more 'churn money' falls into the hands of the average bettor.

[azeri98]

Wow I didn't know you guys were taxed on your winnings, I knew the lottery winnings were taxed but not racing. We don't get taxed up here on either.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by azeri98

Wow I didn't know you guys were taxed on your winnings, I knew the lottery winnings were taxed but not racing. We don't get taxed up here on either.

Worse still is that winners of large payouts are double-taxed.

The money that goes into the betting pools is reduced by takeout -- part of which goes to taxes.

Then, winners of bets that meet certain conditions (like jackpot payoffs) have taxes withheld.