Religion II

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Doesn't matter, since theistic creationism does not violate any laws of logic.

Argument from ignorance! You are basically saying that if no one can prove you wrong then you must be right. It ain't necessarily so! Atheistic naturalism does not violate any laws of logic.

YouTube

[Actor]

Originally Posted by hcap

I assume you told boxcar about The cosmic microwave background (CMB, CMBR)?

I have!

Originally Posted by hcap

Box, it is electromagnetic radiation as a remnant from an early stage of the universe in Big Bang cosmology. Almost as reliable as witnessing it, considering the speed of light

That is witnessing it!

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Actor

I have!

That is witnessing it!

Amazing how many times we have been through this before. Very doubtful there were first hand witnesses to new testament events.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...ry/mmfour.html

PBS

Written over the course of almost a century after Jesus' death, the four gospels of the New Testament, though they tell the same story, reflect very different ideas and concerns.

A period of forty years separates the death of Jesus from the writing of the first gospel. History offers us little direct evidence about the events of this period, but it does suggest that the early Christians were engaged in one of the most basic of human activities: story-telling. In the words of Mike White, "It appears that between the death of Jesus and the writing of the first gospel, Mark, that they clearly are telling stories. They're passing on the tradition of what happened to Jesus, what he stood for and what he did, orally, by telling it and retelling it. And in the process they are defining Jesus for themselves."

These shared memories, passed along by word of mouth, are known as "oral tradition." They included stories of Jesus' miracles and healings, his parables and teachings, and his death. Eventually some stories were written down. The first written documents probably included an account of the death of Jesus and a collection of sayings attributed to him.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

I have!

That is witnessing it!

Only if you redefine what an eye witness is?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Amazing how many times we have been through this before. Very doubtful there were first hand witnesses to new testament events.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...ry/mmfour.html

PBS

Written over the course of almost a century after Jesus' death, the four gospels of the New Testament, though they tell the same story, reflect very different ideas and concerns.

A period of forty years separates the death of Jesus from the writing of the first gospel. History offers us little direct evidence about the events of this period, but it does suggest that the early Christians were engaged in one of the most basic of human activities: story-telling. In the words of Mike White, "It appears that between the death of Jesus and the writing of the first gospel, Mark, that they clearly are telling stories. They're passing on the tradition of what happened to Jesus, what he stood for and what he did, orally, by telling it and retelling it. And in the process they are defining Jesus for themselves."

These shared memories, passed along by word of mouth, are known as "oral tradition." They included stories of Jesus' miracles and healings, his parables and teachings, and his death. Eventually some stories were written down. The first written documents probably included an account of the death of Jesus and a collection of sayings attributed to him.

Pure rubbish. All the NT was written before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

We're supposed to believe that the the biggest disaster in Israel's history occurred in 70 A.D. with the Roman invasion and not one Jewish writer said a word about it in the NT? Now contrast that strange silence with all that is written in the OT about the exiles of the Jews under the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Argument from ignorance! You are basically saying that if no one can prove you wrong then you must be right. It ain't necessarily so! Atheistic naturalism does not violate any laws of logic.

You are the one willfully ignorant. Nothing can create itself because that would violate that the Law of Noncontradiction! Period.

You want to believe a blatant contradiction!? Fine! But quit insulting other people's intelligence by telling us that a thing can exist and not exist at the same time in the same, which would have to be the case with self-creation.

And I know you think you have a super clever workaround with your stupid theory about an eternal universe, but you only dig a deeper hole for yourself because that utterly idiotic theory would violate two laws of logic!

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Pure rubbish. All the NT was written before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

We're supposed to believe that the the biggest disaster in Israel's history occurred in 70 A.D. with the Roman invasion and not one Jewish writer said a word about it in the NT? Now contrast that strange silence with all that is written in the OT about the exiles of the Jews under the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions.

There were secular historical archeological accounts and artifacts depicting that event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE)

There was no witnesses to any supernatural happening just like no witnesses to stuff like Genesis, Adam and Eve, the Flood, Tower of babel, and particularly witnesses to your fixation with your god murdering children and farm animals.

However the background radiation of the big bang (CMB, CMBR) follows laws of nature and because of the speed of light, gives as actual images of what happened 14 billion years ago. You constantly complain of scientism, and lack of forensics

Forensic Sciences: Types of Evidence
https://www.nij.gov/topics/forensics...s/welcome.aspx

Evidence refers to information or objects that may be admitted into court for judges and juries to consider when hearing a case. Evidence can come from varied sources — from genetic material or trace chemicals ​to dental history or fingerprints. Evidence can serve many roles in an investigation, such as to trace an illicit substance, identify remains or reconstruct a crime.

Scientific, forensic proof without any need to cross examine questionable so-called "first hand testimony"

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

There were secular historical archeological accounts and artifacts depicting that event.

Really? No kidding? You're such a paragon and wealth of valuable information. HOWEVER, that doesn't tell us why the Jewish writers of the NT had absolutely nothing to say about such a monumental and devastating event, as the OT prophets had plenty to say about the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities of the Jews. 70 A.D. was the second destruction of the Jewish temple, which was at the very epicenter of the Jews' religious and cultural life,
an not one peep out of one Jewish NT writer? Really? And this becomes even more curious since Jerusalem had a large congregation of Messianic believers, headed up by Peter and James.

The only rationale explanation to explain this kind of deafening silence to such an historical event is that ALL, of what would eventually become recognized as the NT canon, was complete prior to 70 A.D.!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Only if you redefine what an eye witness is?

What is your definition?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

All the NT was written before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

Your claim. Your burden of proof.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You are the one willfully ignorant. Nothing can create itself because that would violate that the Law of Noncontradiction! Period.

You want to believe a blatant contradiction!? Fine! But quit insulting other people's intelligence by telling us that a thing can exist and not exist at the same time in the same, which would have to be the case with self-creation.

Quit lying. You know that I never advanced such a claim.

Originally Posted by boxcar

And I know you think you have a super clever workaround with your stupid theory about an eternal universe, but you only dig a deeper hole for yourself because that utterly idiotic theory would violate two laws of logic!

First, name the two laws. Second, show your argument. If you cannot do both then you have no case. Put up or shut up.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

... HOWEVER, that doesn't tell us why the Jewish writers of the NT ...

The scholarly consensus is that the entire NT, with the possible exception of the Epistle to the Hebrews, was written in Greek. Why assume that it was written by Jewish writers? Occam's razor would say it was written by Greeks.

I've pointed this out before. The epistles identify 8 churches in (1)Rome, (2)Corinth, (3)Galatia, (4)Ephesus, (5)Philippi, (6)Colossae, (7)Thessaly, and finally (8)a church that was probably in Jerusalem. Take away Rome and Jerusalem and the remaining 6 are in Greece (modern day Turkey was considered part of Greece in ancient times since Alexander had conquered it).

The concept of Hell, so prominent in the NT, is a Greek concept, inspired, no doubt, by the numerous volcanoes in the Mediterranean regions. Satan is modeled on Hades (Roman Pluto).

I suggest you read

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Puzzle-...r=1-1-fkmrnull


and watch

YouTube

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

The scholarly consensus is that the entire NT, with the possible exception of the Epistle to the Hebrews, was written in Greek. Why assume that it was written by Jewish writers? Occam's razor would say it was written by Greeks.

I've pointed this out before. The epistles identify 8 churches in (1)Rome, (2)Corinth, (3)Galatia, (4)Ephesus, (5)Philippi, (6)Colossae, (7)Thessaly, and finally (8)a church that was probably in Jerusalem. Take away Rome and Jerusalem and the remaining 6 are in Greece (modern day Turkey was considered part of Greece in ancient times since Alexander had conquered it).

The concept of Hell, so prominent in the NT, is a Greek concept, inspired, no doubt, by the numerous volcanoes in the Mediterranean regions. Satan is modeled on Hades (Roman Pluto).

I suggest you read

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Puzzle-...r=1-1-fkmrnull


and watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-gbOnWj6Mw

Greek was the "universal" language of the ANE that was spoken, read and written. Paul was a very educated man and probably wrote his own epistles or most of them epistles. Luke was a Gentile physician and historian, and no doubt knew the Greek language well. The other apostles probably got others to write for them. Hellenistic Jews abounded everywhere. Moreover, as Gentiles were converted and brought into the Church, they would have assisted the apostles as well.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Quit lying. You know that I never advanced such a claim.[/b]

It (self-causation, self-creation) is implicit in the finite model of the universe in atheistic naturalism, since naturalism demands natural causes, not supernatural or transcendent causes..

First, name the two laws. Second, show your argument. If you cannot do both then you have no case. Put up or shut up.

Been there done all that. Go suck on raw eggs.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Really? No kidding? You're such a paragon and wealth of valuable information. HOWEVER, that doesn't tell us why the Jewish writers of the NT had absolutely nothing to say about such a monumental and devastating event, as the OT prophets had plenty to say about the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities of the Jews. 70 A.D. was the second destruction of the Jewish temple, which was at the very epicenter of the Jews' religious and cultural life,
an not one peep out of one Jewish NT writer? Really? And this becomes even more curious since Jerusalem had a large congregation of Messianic believers, headed up by Peter and James.

The only rationale explanation to explain this kind of deafening silence to such an historical event is that ALL, of what would eventually become recognized as the NT canon, was complete prior to 70 A.D.!

Prior to 70 A.D.? Documentation? Or maybe Time travel????

I guess my ancestors the early Jews, used used this to travel back some 70 years to be first hand eye witnesses.

Jews were smart and ahead of their time even then.



Gee, I guess a Jew slipped, banged his head and and drew...



BTW, bunky from wiki....

Marcion of Sinope was the first Christian leader in recorded history (though later considered heretical) to propose and delineate a uniquely Christian canon[24] (c. AD 140). This included 10 epistles from St. Paul, as well as a version of the Gospel of Luke, which today is known as the Gospel of Marcion. By doing this, he established a particular way of looking at religious texts that persists in Christian thought today.[25]