No lasix for ARROGATE or GUNRUNNER

[lamboguy]

both horses had their best career performances without the help!

which lends to the question, do these horses really need that stuff to run fast?

[JustRalph]

I find this very interesting.

Did they get anything else as a substitute? Something similar that's legal over there?

[Fager Fan]

I've heard that testing over there is a joke, at least a number of years ago when the person I know worked over there. This is why no allowable race day meds doesn't necessarily make a jurisdiction clean as the driven snow. We need to know how they back it up.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

I find this very interesting.

Did they get anything else as a substitute? Something similar that's legal over there?

Lasix is the lazy man's way to dehydrate a horse. It can still be done the old fashioned way, the way it was done before Lasix.

[RacingFan1992]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

Lasix is the lazy man's way to dehydrate a horse. It can still be done the old fashioned way, the way it was done before Lasix.

Which is how? I heard old horsemen used to take away food and water from the horse 24 hours prior to the start of the race but many people think that is cruel yet sticking them with needles and running them on pain masking drugs (I'm not saying Lasix is a painkiller) and then having them breakdown in a race resulting in almost certain death is okay?

Good if Arrogate didn't run on Lasix.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by RacingFan1992

Which is how? I heard old horsemen used to take away food and water from the horse 24 hours prior to the start of the race but many people think that is cruel yet sticking them with needles and running them on pain masking drugs (I'm not saying Lasix is a painkiller) and then having them breakdown in a race resulting in almost certain death is okay?

Good if Arrogate didn't run on Lasix.

Right. You refuse the horse water. That is actually a major part of the Lasix discussion. Whether it is more "humane" to use Lasix as opposed to "natural" dehydrating methods for epistaxis.

The point is that you can ban Lasix, but unless you ban other ways of dehydrating a horse, it will still go on.

When you refer to pain masking drugs, are you referring to illegal medications or legal therapeutics? Just curious.

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

both horses had their best career performances without the help!

which lends to the question, do these horses really need that stuff to run fast?

I thought Gun Runner's career best was at Oaklawn.

[RacingFan1992]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

Right. You refuse the horse water. That is actually a major part of the Lasix discussion. Whether it is more "humane" to use Lasix as opposed to "natural" dehydrating methods for epistaxis.

The point is that you can ban Lasix, but unless you ban other ways of dehydrating a horse, it will still go on.

When you refer to pain masking drugs, are you referring to illegal medications or legal therapeutics? Just curious.

I was referring to the method used by those idiot jackwagons in low level claiming races on horses who have known leg problems and still run them for the sake of maybe getting a few bucks back on their investment. I'm not sure if that cleared up anything.

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by RacingFan1992

I was referring to the method used by those idiot jackwagons in low level claiming races on horses who have known leg problems and still run them for the sake of maybe getting a few bucks back on their investment. I'm not sure if that cleared up anything.

They use them on every horse from the very bottom rung to Graded Stakes. If someone can get away with it and it seems many are then why not use it on any horse?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by onefast99

They use them on every horse from the very bottom rung to Graded Stakes. If someone can get away with it and it seems many are then why not use it on any horse?

I have 2 problems with Lasix in American racing and that's one of them. (The other is that every CREDIBLE anti-doping agency in the world considers Lasix a masking agent that allows competitors to dope with other substances.)

Specifically, my idea of a medication is something you use to treat a condition. When I was a teenager, we had a bleeders' list in California. Horse bled in a race or a workout, got scoped, and then the track veterinarian authorized the horse to run on Lasix in the next start and listed her. At first, the list was posted at the track, later, Trevor started announcing it, and they eventually put it in the program.

But somewhere along the line, it just became almost everyone runs on Lasix, and there was no requirement that the horse be shown to be a bleeder, in the hope that it will enhance the horse's performance. And I'm sorry, that's not medicating, that's doping.

I don't care if there's some other more natural way to dehydrate a horse. Doping a horse should be illegal as a matter of principle. If they want to bring Lasix back into the realm of medication, that's a separate issue.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by onefast99

They use them on every horse from the very bottom rung to Graded Stakes. If someone can get away with it and it seems many are then why not use it on any horse?

Are you talking about Lasix or pain-masking drugs?

I'm still wondering whether people are referring to bute and Banamine, are some other illegal drug as pain-masking.

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

Are you talking about Lasix or pain-masking drugs?

I'm still wondering whether people are referring to bute and Banamine, are some other illegal drug as pain-masking.

That is the 6 million dollar question, trainers will use what they can get away with whether they are legal or not. If there is a legal substance being used to mask pain please tell us what it is.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I have 2 problems with Lasix in American racing and that's one of them. (The other is that every CREDIBLE anti-doping agency in the world considers Lasix a masking agent that allows competitors to dope with other substances.)

I'm not going to get into a protracted discussion about Lasix. Either you believe Level 3 or 4 bleeders should be treated and allowed to race, or should be retired. If you believe Lasix should be legal and is overused, then rewrite the rules to make it harder to get on the vet's list. If you want to ban Lasix, then be prepared for the alternative, unless you think you can control that too.

Lasix is considered a masking agent for urine testing because it dilutes the sample. The testing in horse racing is both blood and urine. I've talked to testing pharmacologists, and whatever drugs you are trying to mask aren't going to beat the blood testing machine.

The difference with horse racing is that any medication not on the RMTC approved list is zero tolerance. It doesn't matter if they are diluted - a picogram is enough to get you busted. In human testing there are de minimus levels for substances, meaning you have to be above that level for it even to be considered a violation. For example in MLB the minimums (in ng/mL) are

-------------------------------------Test---------Confirmatory Test
Cocaine Metabolites-------------- 300-----------150
Opiates/Metabolites---------------2000---------2000
Phencyclicdine (PCP)----------------25..............25
Cannabinoids------------------------50-----------15

If a horse comes back with 2,000 ng/mL of an opiate, the trainer should prep for a six month vacation.

I'm not picking on you. It's just that the masking agent argument really isn't pertinent in horse racing and hasn't been for a while.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

Lasix is considered a masking agent for urine testing because it dilutes the sample. The testing in horse racing is both blood and urine. I've talked to testing pharmacologists, and whatever drugs you are trying to mask aren't going to beat the blood testing machine.

The World Anti-Doping Agency, which doesn't rely on horse racing to make its living, is a far more reliable source on whether Lasix is a masking agent. They say it is and will suspend ANYONE who tests positive for it for 2 years.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by onefast99

That is the 6 million dollar question, trainers will use what they can get away with whether they are legal or not. If there is a legal substance being used to mask pain please tell us what it is.

Actually, I had a conversation with Ed Martin president and CEO at ARCI about shifting some testing from post race to looking for designer drugs. I'll be posting that on the blog soon. I've also had some conversations with two of the pre-eminent equine pharmacologists in the country, and they are skeptical about the ability to come up with pain masking agents that are undetectable given testing technology. The general opinion is, big pharma has pretty much figured out what substances kill pain, we know how to test for them, and it's not likely someone in their garage has come up with better pain killers. Stimulants or anabolics, ehhh...maybe.