Sports Wagering one step closer in NJ....

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by Hambletonian

at the end of the day, legal sports betting will not spread because the profit margin is so thin it is not worth the financial or political capital to try and work it through

it is just an attractive amenity...

Not true, as long as the dollar volume is high enough.
You're correct if small, isolated, areas are the only participants.

[Hambletonian]

You guys have to keep in mind casinos can lose money on sports betting. Why do you think most casinos in Las Vegas have much larger seating areas for racing then for sport betting? Because the racing handle is guaranteed money, 20 something percent and tons of churn with minute plus races five minutes apart all day long.

Sports betting has a low takeout, and a very very slow churn. The casinos would all be very happy if everybody bet the races and not the games.

Sports betting is just not a great way to make revenue in the gambling arena.

The only worse bet is opening up a racetrack...

[alhattab]

Originally Posted by Canarsie

It's very rare that the full panel of judges will override the earlier decision. It happens but usually on the west coast where that ultra left 9th circuit court keeps making decisions that make no sense. They get overruled so often my pet cat could win a brief against them.

As you know I hope I'm wrong but Christie enacting a bill if he was elected would be fairly simple. It could actually be commingled with sports fantasy which is 100% gambling no matter what the law says. A smart person (not me) could have a bill polished within a week. Usually I wouldn't want to get the government involved but their ads about matching your deposit is fraud. A uniform set of rules with MINIMAL interference would be just fine with me. Racing says bet $200 get $200 and doesn't try to rip off their new customers. Racing's language is in plain english I commend them for that.

I suggest you read this and see how hard it is to get a case about sports betting reheard.

A closer look at the Third Circuit’s recent en banc cases

http://thirdcircuitblog.com/judges/a...en-banc-cases/

Of interest:

http://blog.northjersey.com/meadowla...st/#more-12100

[Canarsie]

Originally Posted by alhattab

Of interest:

http://blog.northjersey.com/meadowla...st/#more-12100

Interesting article thanks for posting the link. The one thing that stood out for me if the state of NJ wins via en banc" this will be heard by the supreme court (my opinion) and end the controversy one way or another.

It was a great read until the last two paragraphs which contained Dennis Drazin commentary. I still don't know how much money he's making and how much he has in bonus clauses should sports wagering become the law of the land. Public information including salaries on the people trying to get SW enacted is like sealed court documents. What do these people have to hide? If they are using taxpayer money (I have no clue but have a right to ask) or subsidies as a resident I have the right to know.

Without internet and mobile wagering SW is doomed to failure anyway. Draftkings and Fanduel have partnered and let the league's buy a piece of them to make sure they don't get wiped out by a big boy. It will be tough but not impossible for Yahoo and others to make a dent in fantasy sports. This is the route that NJ should have taken except the person (my opinion, nothing to back it up) in the above paragraph probably nixed it.

One would hope that congress could enact a bill from both sides of the aisle. Certainly there will be good paying jobs available in every state that's a win win. If it sounds like I'm speaking from both sides of my mouth this is all predicated on the average joe being able to have a cup of coffee or just use speed dial on his or hers phone to make a wager. Driving to monmouth park would be considered a monumental hassle when a person could pick up a phone and have credit extended for a few days. If they are losing would they attempt to drive back in an attempt to get even? Or would the option be where you wouldn't have to settle up by tuesday and use the phone be the popular choice. The answer is a no brainer for me even though I expect rebuttals stating that there are enough STUPID people who will drive back to MP.

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by Canarsie

Interesting article thanks for posting the link. The one thing that stood out for me if the state of NJ wins via en banc" this will be heard by the supreme court (my opinion) and end the controversy one way or another.

It was a great read until the last two paragraphs which contained Dennis Drazin commentary. I still don't know how much money he's making and how much he has in bonus clauses should sports wagering become the law of the land. Public information including salaries on the people trying to get SW enacted is like sealed court documents. What do these people have to hide? If they are using taxpayer money (I have no clue but have a right to ask) or subsidies as a resident I have the right to know.

Without internet and mobile wagering SW is doomed to failure anyway. Draftkings and Fanduel have partnered and let the league's buy a piece of them to make sure they don't get wiped out by a big boy. It will be tough but not impossible for Yahoo and others to make a dent in fantasy sports. This is the route that NJ should have taken except the person (my opinion, nothing to back it up) in the above paragraph probably nixed it.

One would hope that congress could enact a bill from both sides of the aisle. Certainly there will be good paying jobs available in every state that's a win win. If it sounds like I'm speaking from both sides of my mouth this is all predicated on the average joe being able to have a cup of coffee or just use speed dial on his or hers phone to make a wager. Driving to monmouth park would be considered a monumental hassle when a person could pick up a phone and have credit extended for a few days. If they are losing would they attempt to drive back in an attempt to get even? Or would the option be where you wouldn't have to settle up by tuesday and use the phone be the popular choice. The answer is a no brainer for me even though I expect rebuttals stating that there are enough STUPID people who will drive back to MP.

I understand you are concerned about Dennis and the horseman who took over MP on their own dime. To date the expenditures Dennis has paid for with his own personal monies is significant. Would you rather have seen the track go bust? Head a little north and Jeff Gural received about $100m from backers to build the new grandstand at the Big M and keep racing going. Both track operators are committed to keeping NJ racing operating but both need new revenue streams to do so. Who cares if sports wagering earns any of them a bonus the fact is they are putting money where there mouth is and it is for the present and future enjoyment of all of us who race, bet and frequent the tracks(and casinos). The Supreme Court won't see the sports wagering arguement, it is now headed back to the Third Circuit for an actual hearing and vote on its future.

[SandyW]

It is somewhat of a pipe dream that New Jersey will get the ruling it wants.
Things will stay the same until the NFL and the NCAA agree to change the law in congress.
This Third Circuit hearing in nothing more then smoke and mirrors.

[onefast99]

Sandy W what part of this dont you understand?
A dozen judges in the Third Circuit Court of Appeals on Monday gave the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, and NCAA notice that they have until Sept. 29 to reply to the request by state elected officials and thoroughbred horsemen to get another bite at the judicial apple. - See more at: http://blog.northjersey.com/meadowla...st/#more-12100

In a Presidential election year no other courts will have this on their docket, the Third Circuit will be the final say on this matter for quite sometime, now that in itself isn't a guarantee they will pass SW but it is a ray of hope!

[SandyW]

Originally Posted by onefast99

Sandy W what part of this dont you understand?
A dozen judges in the Third Circuit Court of Appeals on Monday gave the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, and NCAA notice that they have until Sept. 29 to reply to the request by state elected officials and thoroughbred horsemen to get another bite at the judicial apple. - See more at: http://blog.northjersey.com/meadowla...st/#more-12100

In a Presidential election year no other courts will have this on their docket, the Third Circuit will be the final say on this matter for quite sometime, now that in itself isn't a guarantee they will pass SW but it is a ray of hope!

Wishful thinking. Good luck.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by SandyW

It is somewhat of a pipe dream that New Jersey will get the ruling it wants.
Things will stay the same until the NFL and the NCAA agree to change the law in congress.
This Third Circuit hearing in nothing more then smoke and mirrors.

Other than lobbying Congress, the leagues have no say in the matter.
There is no "agree to change"(the law).....
The ban is unconstitutional because the law banning sports wagering is not applied equally. If it were, then sports betting would have to be illegal in ALL 50 states and all US territories.

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by SandyW

Wishful thinking. Good luck.

Neither, just stating the facts. Try to educate yourself on this subject and add something we can debate. Enjoy.

[Canarsie]

Originally Posted by onefast99

I understand you are concerned about Dennis and the horseman who took over MP on their own dime. To date the expenditures Dennis has paid for with his own personal monies is significant. Would you rather have seen the track go bust? Head a little north and Jeff Gural received about $100m from backers to build the new grandstand at the Big M and keep racing going. Both track operators are committed to keeping NJ racing operating but both need new revenue streams to do so. Who cares if sports wagering earns any of them a bonus the fact is they are putting money where there mouth is and it is for the present and future enjoyment of all of us who race, bet and frequent the tracks(and casinos). The Supreme Court won't see the sports wagering arguement, it is now headed back to the Third Circuit for an actual hearing and vote on its future.

I highly respect your commentary on this issue and read your replies more than once just in case I missed something. It's obvious that you are on a first name basis with him and I'm cool with that. But if he's spending his own money I see ZERO proof of that. It's not that I started asking about this yesterday to me its a legitimate question that could be answered on a questionnaire without giving out the exact amount of money or compensation.

You are enhancing my argument by stating Gural has partners and to a degree a mathematician could figure out his balance sheet both in plus and minus. I don't think the Hard Rock got involved for 5% of the action.

Your talking about his bonus and the public doesn't have a clue how much he earns. It's equivalent to a teacher making $250,000 and then buying pens for his or her classes. Isn't it fact that he was on the NJSEA board as an executive and jumped ship? Have you ever read anything about this?

Just when NJSEA thought it was out, court pulls them back in on account wagering - See more at:

http://blog.northjersey.com/meadowla....ucKmkaHx.dpuf

and what's inside the article?

And now here comes a New Jersey Appellate Division ruling that, while mostly a win for the state Racing Commission over Freehold Raceway, also found that NJSEA is not allowed to turn over basically all of its off-track wagering and account wagering responsibilities to Dennis Drazin’s Darby Development.

THIS is public information written by the great writer of Meadowlands matters John Brennan.

So now I'm back to square one as to what's in this for him. No proof that he spent a penny of his own money but a ruling from the New Jersey Appellate Division basically saying "hold your horses" (no pun intended) Can you tell me with 100% assurance that his law firm isn't billing ANYONE over this issue?

Isn't it fair for me to ask these questions as a horseplayer and resident of NJ?

I have one more made up scenario for you. You own a horse and a person within the thoroughbred industry gets a guarantee to raise the purse by 400% for this one particular race. The problem is his horse is guaranteed to win the race and the others have to duke it out for the rest of the purse money. Second pace pays more than the original winners purse and third pays more than second and so on. Who cares about the deal when so much money is involved and you get your HUGE chunk of the pie for finishing second. Why should anyone care about the deal where just finishing in the money will bring financial enjoyment to the owners.

Do you really think the people who frequent the casinos give a damn about the survival of horse racing? If you told them there would be an additional 1% withheld to benefit horse racing they would be kicking and screaming in objection.

I have only written about one person there are many more I would have questions for starting with William Hill and how their resources are being distributed pertaining to SW. I'm going to assume there will be no bidding for a contact if MP wins.

I stated that this will go to the Supreme Court meaning if the 23 judge panel overruled the three judges. I'm sorry if I wasn't more concise about that. There is no way the government drops the case if they lose at this level.

[onefast99]

So now I'm back to square one as to what's in this for him. No proof that he spent a penny of his own money but a ruling from the New Jersey Appellate Division basically saying "hold your horses" (no pun intended) Can you tell me with 100% assurance that his law firm isn't billing ANYONE over this issue?
Easily answered he is a horse lover has been for many years, a former member of the racing commission and someone who has put a lot of time and money into this game, how much? I know its in the millions.

Isn't it fair for me to ask these questions as a horseplayer and resident of NJ?
Yes but you should be happy he stepped up and kept MP racing alive, there weren't many who wanted it and as you saw Morris Bailey jumped ship after taking control for a week or two!
I have one more made up scenario for you. You own a horse and a person within the thoroughbred industry gets a guarantee to raise the purse by 400% for this one particular race. The problem is his horse is guaranteed to win the race and the others have to duke it out for the rest of the purse money. Second pace pays more than the original winners purse and third pays more than second and so on. Who cares about the deal when so much money is involved and you get your HUGE chunk of the pie for finishing second. Why should anyone care about the deal where just finishing in the money will bring financial enjoyment to the owners.
You are talking about the purse increase for the August 2nd Haskell. Parx actually added the additional funds hoping to secure a spot for AP in next Saturdays PA Derby, it didn't work out so well for them and now it is a write off. There was also a conflict with the Popes visit, Parx wouldn't move the Pa Derby so the connections opted to go to the Travers.

Do you really think the people who frequent the casinos give a damn about the survival of horse racing? If you told them there would be an additional 1% withheld to benefit horse racing they would be kicking and screaming in objection.
I think you are looking for an answer on why the casinos gave up the cash infusion to the racetracks am I correct? If so it was solely based on the tracks not pursuing slots, now that AC is "under water" casino wise I highly doubt any form of slots will come to any of NJ's racetracks soon. The why is Governor Christie, he won't let AC die a slow death.
I have only written about one person there are many more I would have questions for starting with William Hill and how their resources are being distributed pertaining to SW. I'm going to assume there will be no bidding for a contact if MP wins.
William Hill has put up a huge amount of money betting they will be the book for the sports wagering platform. I would have to say they are feeling much better about that bet since the Third Circuit announced a "second" look at the sports wagering approval.

[Canarsie]

Originally Posted by onefast99

So now I'm back to square one as to what's in this for him. No proof that he spent a penny of his own money but a ruling from the New Jersey Appellate Division basically saying "hold your horses" (no pun intended) Can you tell me with 100% assurance that his law firm isn't billing ANYONE over this issue?
Easily answered he is a horse lover has been for many years, a former member of the racing commission and someone who has put a lot of time and money into this game, how much? I know its in the millions.

Isn't it fair for me to ask these questions as a horseplayer and resident of NJ?
Yes but you should be happy he stepped up and kept MP racing alive, there weren't many who wanted it and as you saw Morris Bailey jumped ship after taking control for a week or two!
I have one more made up scenario for you. You own a horse and a person within the thoroughbred industry gets a guarantee to raise the purse by 400% for this one particular race. The problem is his horse is guaranteed to win the race and the others have to duke it out for the rest of the purse money. Second pace pays more than the original winners purse and third pays more than second and so on. Who cares about the deal when so much money is involved and you get your HUGE chunk of the pie for finishing second. Why should anyone care about the deal where just finishing in the money will bring financial enjoyment to the owners.
You are talking about the purse increase for the August 2nd Haskell. Parx actually added the additional funds hoping to secure a spot for AP in next Saturdays PA Derby, it didn't work out so well for them and now it is a write off. There was also a conflict with the Popes visit, Parx wouldn't move the Pa Derby so the connections opted to go to the Travers.

Do you really think the people who frequent the casinos give a damn about the survival of horse racing? If you told them there would be an additional 1% withheld to benefit horse racing they would be kicking and screaming in objection.
I think you are looking for an answer on why the casinos gave up the cash infusion to the racetracks am I correct? If so it was solely based on the tracks not pursuing slots, now that AC is "under water" casino wise I highly doubt any form of slots will come to any of NJ's racetracks soon. The why is Governor Christie, he won't let AC die a slow death.
I have only written about one person there are many more I would have questions for starting with William Hill and how their resources are being distributed pertaining to SW. I'm going to assume there will be no bidding for a contact if MP wins.
William Hill has put up a huge amount of money betting they will be the book for the sports wagering platform. I would have to say they are feeling much better about that bet since the Third Circuit announced a "second" look at the sports wagering approval.

1. Seriously he was a board member when the Meadowlands ship was sinking and I don't recall him stepping to the forefront about solutions. He is as guilty as every other board member who had cushy jobs. He wasn't putting up his money if Jeff Gural didn't step up to the plate. Is that fairly accurate This is quite some time ago and my memory is not as sharp as it once was by a country mile.

2. You are 100% right about Morris Bailey but again being a partner (I think not sure) in a prestigious law firm he certainly was capable of buying at least a 10% stake instead of becoming an advisor who the public (despite what you say no proof has been presented) has no knowledge how much money he can make out of this deal. I can't take your word for granted please show me how he stepped up with CASH not jumping ship from the NJSEA.

3. Again if he has put up a considerable sum of money I will get on my knees and apologize to Mr. Drazin and everyone else who wants or deserves one. All I want to see is the money invested with the necessary forms along with it, Most residents of NJ don't even know who he is, I'm sure he wants to keep it this way. Gural didn't put up a really large sum of money but at least he answers questions. I'm pretty sure his best friend if asked would be "NO COMMENT".

4. I wasn't talking about the Parx rate at all. I'm making up a scenario about his compensation. Does he get a HUGE BONUS if SW is legal and MP and WH take a bath by the "wise guys"? If the third circuit refuses to hear the case does he then submit bills from his firm? All I want is simple answers everything he does is cloaked in secrecy. As far as I know your the only one stating that he put up some of his money. None of his associates or people at MP has stated his financial involvement.

5. Do you really think he did a good job at NJSEA? My hunch is your answer will be his hands were tied. He also jumped ship seeing the writing on the wall. You do know it is a politically appointed job for every appointee and that usually doesn't turn out well for the average Joe. I have a NY Times link where it flat out says that and it's dated 1994. So PATRONAGE goes way back.

6. I'm not talking about the casinos caring what happens, the players at the casinos are the ones who would be screaming and yelling. I would think Mr. Sweeney makes sure some A.C. casinos get some action in the new buildings that are going to be constructed.

Some questions you skillfully sidestepped so I'll bring them up again.


Isn't it fair for me to ask these questions as a horseplayer and resident of NJ?
Yes but you should be happy he stepped up and kept MP racing alive
So how come the questions aren't being answered? When you contribute over a certain amount certain forms have to be filed.

how much? I know its in the millions
One doesn't blindly put in millions into something without leaving a paper trail.
Could you kindly provide a link so I can at least see his tax write offs if in fact he contributed blindly

William Hill has put up a huge amount of money betting they will be the book for the sports wagering platform. I would have to say they are feeling much better about that bet since the Third Circuit announced a "second" look at the sports wagering approval.

Again we don't know how much money WH has invested in order to get a NO BIDDING contract. Is this fair to every other company who wants to get their foot through the front door. Does anyone who is working for MP use WH as their counsel or at least have them on retainer?

Imo this is almost like Betfair getting the 4NJBets account. The derails made to the public were minute and probably froze out all the competition. Do you think this was fair?

[Stillriledup]

Every 5 seconds during NFL Games I see commercials for fantasy sports gambling yet the NFL is fighting Nj saying gambling will hurt their brand. As John McEnroe might say 'you can't be serious '

[onefast99]

Canarsie,
I do not have any documentation to show you on the exact amount that Dennis and Darby invested into keeping the track open and operating. The fact is the NJSEA asked for a Request for Proposal(RFP)in 2011 I have copied Bob Jordans article for you to see there was no games played when it came to selecting the successful bidder.

DON'T POST THE FULL ARTICLES OF COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL....A SENTENCE OR TWO PLUS THE LINK IS ALL THAT IS ALLOWED