Religion II

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The soul simply leaves temporal reality and enters into the eternal realm.

It still doesn't make sense.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Actor

That doesn't make sense. How can the soul "continue to live on" if time stops?

In order to understand the Christian viewpoint, though not necessarily agree, you're going to have to conceive of man as a union of matter (body) and spirit (soul). Matter is corruptible (death), spirit is immaterial (eternal), and therefore not subject to the limitations of time/space (though "embodied" until death).

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

That doesn't make sense. How can the soul "continue to live on" if time stops?

You are right it doesn't make sense. The correct statement is the soul continues its existence outside time and space. According to traditional Christianity God exists outside time and space.

Do photons experience time?

[Light]

Once again Boxcar is talking out of both sides of his mouth which is confusing to Actor, because Boxcar is not that well versed in the metaphysical.

I actually agree with Boxcar in that time does not exist after death. His inconsistency is to say it exists in this life. That is also not true. The only thing that exists in this lifetime as far as time is the illusion of time created by our brains to organize the distance between events. Our physical brain operates on clock time which is man made and not real.

This is not a philosophy. Many scientists now subscribe to the theory of non time. That the past, present and future exists simultaneously. There is only the NOW.

To explain this, consider a "Pop up Book". The entire story is there to see in the same moment, past present and future. If you read the book in paper form, time seems to elapse because you are only recieving the story in bits and pieces to your mind which gives the illusion that time is passing by as you read the story. That is only happening in your little mind. In actuality the whole story is already there. It is only your slow speed of processing the information that gives you the illusion of time.

Another example is from Alan Watts:

Supposing I’m looking through a narrow slit in a fence and a snake goes by. I’ve never seen a snake before and this is mysterious. And I see—through the slit in the fence—first the snake’s head, then I see a long trailing body, and then, finally, the tail. I say, “Well, that was interesting!” Then the snake turns ’round and goes back. And again I see first the head, and then—after an interval—the tail. Now if I call the head one event and the tail another, it will seem to me that the event ‘head’ is the cause of the event ‘tail,’ and the tail is the effect. But if I look at the whole snake I will see a head-tailed snake and it would be simply absurd to say that the head of the snake is the cause of the tail, as if the snake came into being first the head and then the tail. The snake comes into being out of its egg as a head-tailed snake.
11:21

And so, in exactly the same way, all events are really one event. We’re looking—when we talk about different events—we’re looking at different sections, or parts, of one continuous happening. And therefore the idea of separate events which have to be linked by a mysterious process called cause and effect is completely unnecessary. But having thought that way we think of present events as being caused by past events and therefore we tend to regard ourselves as the puppets of the past, as driven along by something that is always behind us.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Once again Boxcar is talking out of both sides of his mouth which is confusing to Actor, because Boxcar is not that well versed in the metaphysical.

I actually agree with Boxcar in that time does not exist after death. His inconsistency is to say it exists in this life. That is also not true. The only thing that exists in this lifetime as far as time is the illusion of time created by our brains to organize the distance between events. Our physical brain operates on clock time which is man made and not real.

This is not a philosophy. Many scientists now subscribe to the theory of non time. That the past, present and future exists simultaneously. There is only the NOW.

To explain this, consider a "Pop up Book". The entire story is there to see in the same moment, past present and future. If you read the book in paper form, time seems to elapse because you are only recieving the story in bits and pieces to your mind which gives the illusion that time is passing by as you read the story. That is only happening in your little mind. In actuality the whole story is already there. It is only your slow speed of processing the information that gives you the illusion of time.

Another example is from Alan Watts:

Supposing I’m looking through a narrow slit in a fence and a snake goes by. I’ve never seen a snake before and this is mysterious. And I see—through the slit in the fence—first the snake’s head, then I see a long trailing body, and then, finally, the tail. I say, “Well, that was interesting!” Then the snake turns ’round and goes back. And again I see first the head, and then—after an interval—the tail. Now if I call the head one event and the tail another, it will seem to me that the event ‘head’ is the cause of the event ‘tail,’ and the tail is the effect. But if I look at the whole snake I will see a head-tailed snake and it would be simply absurd to say that the head of the snake is the cause of the tail, as if the snake came into being first the head and then the tail. The snake comes into being out of its egg as a head-tailed snake.
11:21

And so, in exactly the same way, all events are really one event. We’re looking—when we talk about different events—we’re looking at different sections, or parts, of one continuous happening. And therefore the idea of separate events which have to be linked by a mysterious process called cause and effect is completely unnecessary. But having thought that way we think of present events as being caused by past events and therefore we tend to regard ourselves as the puppets of the past, as driven along by something that is always behind us.

If time doesn't exist in this life, then the only other alternative is that we are now living in eternity -- in a timeless state. But that which is eternal is perfect existence. There can never been a time when a timeless entity did not exist or will ever cease to exist. The problem with your dumb theory in manifold, but the biggest one of all is that with a perfect timeless entity, such as this universe would have to be, there can be no change; for whatever changes does so from one form or state to another, which can only mean that the former state was not perfect.

Also, wherever there is change, no can ever say with certitude that this universe won't ever change from its state of existence to non-existence. Whatever is eternal, therefore, must be immutable, which this universe certainly is not.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

If time doesn't exist in this life, then the only other alternative is that we are now living in eternity -- in a timeless state. But that which is eternal is perfect existence. There can never been a time when a timeless entity did not exist or will ever cease to exist. The problem with your dumb theory in manifold, but the biggest one of all is that with a perfect timeless entity, such as this universe would have to be, there can be no change; for whatever changes does so from one form or state to another, which can only mean that the former state was not perfect.

Also, wherever there is change, no can ever say with certitude that this universe won't ever change from its state of existence to non-existence. Whatever is eternal, therefore, must be immutable, which this universe certainly is not.

You are requiring timelessness and eternity to be "perfect" and "unchanging" in order to qualify to be timeless and eternal. I do understand the concept you are conveying that God is perfection and unchanging. I agree with that. But your idea of what is perfect and unchanging in God's creation is yours, not God's.

Who is to say that what we see in this life and universe is imperfect? Yes there is a lot of pain and heartache, but that seems to be the plan and (as I have mentioned in the past), pain seems to be a major teacher in order for human beings to grow spiritually in this school of life. At the least it is a motivator to bring them closer to God as I believe may have happened in your life. It certainly happened in mine.

I want to reiterate that time is an artificial useful tool created by man in this life to organize the order of events. Time is relative to size and if that is true then it is not real,for example.

If you were reduced to the size of an ant and you crept into a room in a house, it would feel like time elapses as you slowly check out the room. It may take you days. As an adult human, you can see and process everything in that room in an instant. No time required because your size is much bigger than an ant.

And so time changes as one's awareness and consciousness expands. Ultimately God is bigger than all and he can see all, not only in this world but any worlds that exist and may have existed and will exist which means before your birth and death. There is no "time" God needs to process all. There is only the NOW moment that God dwells in where all is one. One eternal moment that spans this world and all that exists. We are also in that NOW moment, as part of God's creation, and that is why there is in reality, no time here or anywhere.Which means this life and the afterlife.

[thaskalos]

To me..."time" isn't just a human construct by which man can better organize his life. IMO...the concept of "time" is created automatically in our minds the moment we realize that our earthly existence comes with an expiration date. It isn't just the way that we "observe" which creates 'time'. The fact that the OBSERVER will eventually, by necessity, be forced to STOP observing, reinforces the concept of "time" further still.

The moment I realize my own mortality...my chief preoccupation becomes..."How much 'time' do I have...and, can I prolong it?" And the "religious" among us have managed to prolong it, in one form or another, into infinity.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Light

Many scientists now subscribe to the theory of non time.

Name one.

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

To me..."time" isn't just a human construct by which man can better organize his life. IMO...the concept of "time" is created automatically in our minds the moment we realize that our earthly existence comes with an expiration date. It isn't just the way that we "observe" which creates 'time'. The fact that the OBSERVER will eventually, by necessity, be forced to STOP observing, reinforces the concept of "time" further still.

The moment I realize my own mortality...my chief preoccupation becomes..."How much 'time' do I have...and, can I prolong it?" And the "religious" among us have managed to prolong it, in one form or another, into infinity.

Yes I agree. And it would be ridiculous for an employer to tell an employee who worked an 8 hour day, you only get paid for a moment because Light says there is no time, only the moment.

In both examples yours and mine, time is a necessary invention to function in this world on many levels. But I am saying these attributes are man made, and not real in existence.

If you had no light and no clock to reference and you floated in space, there would be no "time" in your mind. If time is real, it should also be when you have no reference to man made "clock time" or light.

Time is a condition.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

You are requiring timelessness and eternity to be "perfect" and "unchanging" in order to qualify to be timeless and eternal. I do understand the concept you are conveying that God is perfection and unchanging. I agree with that. But your idea of what is perfect and unchanging in God's creation is yours, not God's.

Who is to say that what we see in this life and universe is imperfect? Yes there is a lot of pain and heartache, but that seems to be the plan and (as I have mentioned in the past), pain seems to be a major teacher in order for human beings to grow spiritually in this school of life. At the least it is a motivator to bring them closer to God as I believe may have happened in your life. It certainly happened in mine.

I want to reiterate that time is an artificial useful tool created by man in this life to organize the order of events. Time is relative to size and if that is true then it is not real,for example.

If you were reduced to the size of an ant and you crept into a room in a house, it would feel like time elapses as you slowly check out the room. It may take you days. As an adult human, you can see and process everything in that room in an instant. No time required because your size is much bigger than an ant.

And so time changes as one's awareness and consciousness expands. Ultimately God is bigger than all and he can see all, not only in this world but any worlds that exist and may have existed and will exist which means before your birth and death. There is no "time" God needs to process all. There is only the NOW moment that God dwells in where all is one. One eternal moment that spans this world and all that exists. We are also in that NOW moment, as part of God's creation, and that is why there is in reality, no time here or anywhere.Which means this life and the afterlife.

It is logically necessary that what is eternal in its essence must be pure, perfect, absolute existence. If you're going to insist that the universe is eternal in its essence then the universe must be pure, perfect existence -- just like God. But whatever is perfect (such as God), cannot change; for the change would either be for the better or for the worse; and therefore the original state could not have been perfect. Yet, the universe is constantly changing. Life comes and it goes. Things come into existence and go out of existence -- unlike the eternal God. All things rot, decay and become corrupt -- again, unlike the eternal God. Therefore, the universe cannot be eternal, logically. And scripture harmonizes with this logic; for everywhere it teaches that God created Space, Matter and Time.

Furthermore, since human beings are an integral part of your eternal universe, you need to explain how is its possible that man created Time. Time, naturally, would be completely unknown and a foreign concept to man.

You also need to explain why Time would be a necessary construct by man. Why is mankind so helplessly and hopelessly time-bound and time-controlled?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Light

Yes I agree. And it would be ridiculous for an employer to tell an employee who worked an 8 hour day, you only get paid for a moment because Light says there is no time, only the moment.

In both examples yours and mine, time is a necessary invention to function in this world on many levels. But I am saying these attributes are man made, and not real in existence.

If you had no light and no clock to reference and you floated in space, there would be no "time" in your mind. If time is real, it should also be when you have no reference to man made "clock time" or light.

Time is a condition.

I agree with you, Light...but I would phrase my argument a little differently:

I have no idea what the world around me really looks like...because I am limited in my perception of it by my bodily senses, which form the only connection through which I can judge my surroundings. And my bodily senses inform me of the existence of "time"...and the defining role that it plays in my life. As long as I only have my bodily senses to depend upon as a perception tool...I must continue to be a "slave" to the concept of 'time'...even if it's just a "condition".

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I agree with you, Light...but I would phrase my argument a little differently:

I have no idea what the world around me really looks like...because I am limited in my perception of it by my bodily senses, which form the only connection through which I can judge my surroundings. And my bodily senses inform me of the existence of "time"...and the defining role that it plays in my life. As long as I only have my bodily senses to depend upon as a perception tool...I must continue to be a "slave" to the concept of 'time'...even if it's just a "condition".

Separating the human flesh suit from the spirit is how we overcome the "world".

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Separating the human flesh suit from the spirit is how we overcome the "world".

Many talk the talk...but how many actually walk the walk?

[Show Me the Wire]

Light:

If time does not exist how can a non-existent thing be affected by gravity, like time is? It seems to me your example of floating in space is akin to being locked in an interior windowless room. The sunlight does not cease to exist because you have no reference to it.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Light

Many scientists now subscribe to the theory of non time.

Originally Posted by Actor

Name one.

Niayesh Afshordi, Perimeter Institute & University of Waterloo
Aida Ahmadzadegan, University of Waterloo
David Albert, Columbia University
Andreas Albrecht, University of California, Davis
Stephon Alexander, Brown University
Abhay Ashtekar, Pennslvania State University
James Bardeen, University of Washington
Richard Bond, CITA
Jens Boos, Perimeter Institute
Robert Brandenberger, McGill University
Jimena Canelas, Harvard University
Sean Carrol, California Institute of Technology
Marina Cortes, Institute for Astronomy
Bianca Dittrich, Perimeter Institute
Fay Dowker, Imperial College London
Barbara Drossel, Darmstadt University of Technology
Avshalom Elitzur, Israeli Institute for Advanced Research
George Ellis, University of Cape Town
Adam Frank, University of Rochester
Laurent Freidel, Perimeter Institute
Lisa Glaser, University of Nottingham
Henrique de Andrade Gomes, Perimeter Institute
Sean Gryb, Radboud University Nijmegen
Giulia Gubitosi, Imperial College London
Lucien Hardy, Perimeter Institute
Viqar Husain, University of New Brunswick
Jenann Ismael, University of Arizona
Stuart Kaufmann, University of Calgary
Brian Keating, University of California, San Diego
Tim Kowlowski, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Jurek Kowalski-Glikman, University of Wroclaw
Andrew Liddle, University of Edinburgh
Renate Loll, Radboud University Nijmegen
Joao Magueijo, Imperial College London
Robert Mann, University of Waterloo
Flavio Mercati, Perimeter Institute
Alvaro Mozota, Perimeter Institute
Markus Mueller, Perimeter Institute & University of Western Ontario
Richard Muller, University of California, Berkeley
Ali Nayeri, Chapman University
Elliot Nelson, Perimeter Institute
Daniele Oriti, Max Planck Institute for Quantum Optics
Kaisa Rejzner, Perimeter Institute
Carlo Rovelli, Universite de la Mediterranee
Chris Smeenk, University of Western Ontario
Matteo Smerlak, Perimeter Instittue
Lee Smolin, Perimeter Institute
Chopin Soo, National Cheng Kung University
Rafael Sorkin, Perimeter Institute
Robert Spekkens, Perimeter Institute
Neil Turok, Perimeter Institute
Francesca Vidotto, Radboud University Nijmegen
Roberto Mangabeira Unger, Harvard Law School
Steve Weinstein, University of Waterloo
Amanda Weltman, University of Cape Town
Wolfgang Wieland, Perimeter Institute
I-Sheng Yang, Perimeter Institute

That is a list of physicists and scientists from just one discussion of many on whether or not time is an illusion.

https://perimeterinstitute.ca/confer...time-cosmology