It's on! The Official Boycott Keeneland Thread.

[FakeNameChanged]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The tracks have been at this game for a very long time...and they understand the horseplayers pretty well. We horseplayers like to bitch and moan...but the truth is that the vast majority of us aren't motivated enough by the takeout when we place our wagers...and this renders our boycott threats rather ineffective. Case in point: Parx and Indiana Grand are running against each other...and Parx has a 30% trifecta takeout, while Indiana Grand's trifecta takeout is "only" 21.5%. You wanna guess which of these two tracks does more trifecta business? And it isn't even CLOSE! The other tracks see this "apathy" of the players...and it tells them all that they need to know about "horseplayer psychology".

When it comes right down to it...we horseplayers have no-one to blame but OURSELVES when it comes to the game's controversial issues.

Don't you think the much larger population base of Philadelphia accounts for the higher handle vs. Indiana? And I didn't know the answer to your question, just a wild guess. Even though I rarely visit tracks anymore, I still prefer tracks close to home.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Whosonfirst

Don't you think the much larger population base of Philadelphia accounts for the higher handle vs. Indiana? And I didn't know the answer to your question, just a wild guess. Even though I rarely visit tracks anymore, I still prefer tracks close to home.

Both these tracks get the vast majority of their mutuel handle from the out-of-state betting outlets...as is the case with virtually every other track in the USA.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by NY Racing Fan

This is EXACTLY how racetracks project that the bettors (consumers) will respond to takeout increases. Short term reluctance and long term acceptance. If this is true and I am a competing track operator, I can live with this and increase takeout to the maximum levels within my jurisdiction as well.

Yes, you can argue that the Keeneland takeout is comparable to others and their product is superior to most but you have to use the most powerful voice that you can to shout out that takeout increases in this environment is unacceptable and that you demand to be heard!

Reading posts like this makes me feel like people like me are simply outnumbered and I fear that tracks are correct in their assumption that the betting public are suckers and will eat whatever they are fed.

You don't see this as an issue?

Let's see, same price for a superior product, yet the customer's unhappy.

Maybe KEE and others just think that with handicappers, you're damned if you don't and damned if you do, so what's the point?

I've pretty much stayed out of the discussion, but now that I'm in it, I think you'd make far more progress, even get owners and others to join you, if you targeted something that I believe is equally if not more important and that's cheating/drugs. Would you ever consider that?

[Jeff P]

PTP
October 11, 2017
When Customers Tell You There's a Fly in the Soup, There's a Fly in the Soup:
http://pullthepocket.blogspot.com/20...es-fly-in.html

Yesterday on twitter there was a conversation about why some people are withholding money from Keeneland this meet. A simple question, with a simple answer ("they raised prices and I don't think that's good for me, or for horse racing") gets twisted and mulched and argued. It's suddenly turned into Swahili.

Then the goalposts get moved around, and no one listens to something that's really not hard to understand in the first place.

It's not like this in other businesses. If you found a fly in your soup at Pete's, and moved your business over to Sue's across the street, the conversation is pretty simple.

"Why did you move your business?"

"I found a fly in my soup"

"OK"

The fact that Sue's soup is 50 cents more a bowl, or they play Fox News instead of CNN, or the waiter's ties are bland isn't a concern.

Keeneland put a fly in the soup and some people don't like it so they're eating someone else's soup. The end.

-jp

.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

You don't see this as an issue?

Let's see, same price for a superior product, yet the customer's unhappy.

Maybe KEE and others just think that with handicappers, you're damned if you don't and damned if you do, so what's the point?

I've pretty much stayed out of the discussion, but now that I'm in it, I think you'd make far more progress, even get owners and others to join you, if you targeted something that I believe is equally if not more important and that's cheating/drugs. Would you ever consider that?

The problem is the price of the other products sucks. So even if your product is superior that doesn't mean it isn't overpriced if it matches the others.

I thought you didn't bet.

[FakeNameChanged]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Both these tracks get the vast majority of their mutuel handle from the out-of-state betting outlets...as is the case with virtually every other track in the USA.

I was simply contending that Philadelphia is the Largest MSA(Metro. stat. area) with a 150 mile radius at 39.2 million people in the US. New york City is 2nd at 36.2 mil, LA 3rd at 22.1 mil, then DC, Chicago, Boston, Detroit. So the out of state handle for Philly comes from NY NJ Del, DC, Md(balt), Conn, & Va. Just comparing to Indiana Grand who sits close to the outer MSA for Chicago at 17.3 mil. I have no proof, but would speculate that out of state interest may come from the nearest population centers in their general region.(edit) MSA data is from 2010, couldn't find anything newer.

[hopbet]

ALCON:
I came to this web site initially (like many) to IMPROVE my overall handicapping(horses). I have GAINED knowledge on this website. I must honestly also admit , I ENJOY the occasional bantering between posters. I'm 100% ALL IN, I will NOT wager at KEENELAND. This is a NO BRAINER.

HOPBET

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Whosonfirst

I was simply contending that Philadelphia is the Largest MSA(Metro. stat. area) with a 150 mile radius at 39.2 million people in the US. New york City is 2nd at 36.2 mil, LA 3rd at 22.1 mil, then DC, Chicago, Boston, Detroit. So the out of state handle for Philly comes from NY NJ Del, DC, Md(balt), Conn, & Va. Just comparing to Indiana Grand who sits close to the outer MSA for Chicago at 17.3 mil. I have no proof, but would speculate that out of state interest may come from the nearest population centers in their general region.(edit) MSA data is from 2010, couldn't find anything newer.

The out-of-state betting is not confined by geographical boundaries, in my opinion...it could come from ANYWHERE. The fact that I may be geographically closer to Philadelphia does not obligate me to bet Parx instead of Santa Anita.

My point is that the trifecta pool-sizes at Parx are a shining testament to the ignorance that today's horseplayers are immersed in. With a 30% takeout...Parx shouldn't be doing any trifecta business at all.

[Afleet]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The out-of-state betting is not confined by geographical boundaries, in my opinion...it could come from ANYWHERE. The fact that I may be geographically closer to Philadelphia does not obligate me to bet Parx instead of Santa Anita.

My point is that the trifecta pool-sizes at Parx are a shining testament to the ignorance that today's horseplayers are immersed in. With a 30% takeout...Parx shouldn't be doing any trifecta business at all.

I never think twice about playing Parx because I am a trifecta player and their take is criminal. I will have horses that I own running there in the future but won't bet into the trifecta pool or bet at all. Pennsylvania has good breeders awards, but terribly over priced product.

[proximity]

a lot of parx triple betting is probably HEAVILY rebated.

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The out-of-state betting is not confined by geographical boundaries, in my opinion...it could come from ANYWHERE. The fact that I may be geographically closer to Philadelphia does not obligate me to bet Parx instead of Santa Anita.

My point is that the trifecta pool-sizes at Parx are a shining testament to the ignorance that today's horseplayers are immersed in. With a 30% takeout...Parx shouldn't be doing any trifecta business at all.

I suspect a substantial percentage of trifecta handle at Parx really isn't at 30%...

Factor in rebates and I'd guess a lot that handle is somewhere in the 9% to 13% range (net effective takeout.)

EDIT: proximity beat me to it.


-jp

.

[turfnsport]

Originally Posted by proximity

a lot of parx triple betting is probably HEAVILY rebated.

Why yes it is...I get a huge rebate if I bet Parx...But a track that has purses fueled by slots that charges a 30% take is downright criminal. No horseplayer, rebated or not, should support a dump like Parx or Penn. Ever.

[Afleet]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

I suspect a substantial percentage of trifecta handle at Parx really isn't at 30%...

Factor in rebates and I'd guess a lot that handle is somewhere in the 9% to 13% range (net effective takeout.)

EDIT: proximity beat me to it.


-jp

.

I'm probably naive, but charging two different prices for the same product, to different customers, seems criminal. You would think there would be a class action lawsuit for discrimination.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by Afleet

I'm probably naive, but charging two different prices for the same product, to different customers, seems criminal. You would think there would be a class action lawsuit for discrimination.

i walk into home depot and the price is marked $100. i go to the register and give them my job name and they give me 15% off for being a regular customer. the same thing when i go to plumbing supply houses or appliance stores.

[Poindexter]

Interesting. Assuming 30% takeout in a $30,000 trifecta pool with 60% being bet by players getting averaging rebates of 17% (based off info in Jeff P's post), lets assume the 60% of rebated money is working on 0% net in aggregate. So in a $30,000 pool, they bet $18,000 make a profit of 0(of course in reality they are likely at closer to +5%). 17% of their $18,000 bet is coming back in rebates $3060, so they are contributing $3060 of the $9000 total takeout in the pool. Of course that means the unsuspecting public (you know the innocent people spending a day at the track that racing is trying to win over as future customers) is contributing $5940 to the takeout on their $12,000 bet. Only -49.5% Now That's Entertainment.

Afleet, the only thing criminal is how stupid the decision makers in this industry are.