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07-19-2018, 09:31 AM
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,176
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Brisnet pace ratings
No expert here on commercial pace ratings, but thought someone could explain Bris pace ratings to me. Before you give me a link I've read how they supposedly develop the numbers.
Case in Point, Delaware Race 1(today) 7/19-5f Dirt.
Magnificentmindset ran 22.3-47.3-1:01.0-1:08.2(1/5's) LR at 5.5f -E2=80
Theresa's Honor ran 22.4-47.4-1:00.3-1:07.1 LR at 5.5f - E2 = 82
The above was in the same race. set the first fraction and was 1 hd behind at 2nd call, so her times using 1L = 1/5 sec are basically the same as the leader.
was one beaten length behind at both 1st and 2nd calls. So using 1L = 1/5 sec. the still arrived at the 2nd call slower than Her TT would be an identical 25.0 as the although she arrived there in a slower time.
I was questioning how they gave an 82 pace rating vs. 's 80 rating? While this is only a 2 pt. difference, I've seen some that are real head scratchers. In another program of my own, I do equate 1 hd to .2 length, but rarely use it.
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Last edited by FakeNameChanged; 07-19-2018 at 09:34 AM.
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07-19-2018, 10:00 AM
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#2
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whosonfirst
No expert here on commercial pace ratings, but thought someone could explain Bris pace ratings to me. Before you give me a link I've read how they supposedly develop the numbers.
Case in Point, Delaware Race 1(today) 7/19-5f Dirt.
Magnificentmindset ran 22.3-47.3-1:01.0-1:08.2(1/5's) LR at 5.5f -E2=80
Theresa's Honor ran 22.4-47.4-1:00.3-1:07.1 LR at 5.5f - E2 = 82
The above was in the same race. set the first fraction and was 1 hd behind at 2nd call, so her times using 1L = 1/5 sec are basically the same as the leader.
was one beaten length behind at both 1st and 2nd calls. So using 1L = 1/5 sec. the still arrived at the 2nd call slower than Her TT would be an identical 25.0 as the although she arrived there in a slower time.
I was questioning how they gave an 82 pace rating vs. 's 80 rating? While this is only a 2 pt. difference, I've seen some that are real head scratchers. In another program of my own, I do equate 1 hd to .2 length, but rarely use it.
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The second call can be a little tricky at these short distance because the time is given for four furlongs but the call is given at a different point. Here is a good reference point:
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/stati...calltimeschart
Could be that BRIS does what I also do. I match the calls to the fractions given. In this case, here is how the second call looks, but keep in mind it comes at the 3 furlong mark:
0.1
1.0
The next call is the stretch call, which always comes one furlong before the finish. So in this case it is 4.5 furlongs, which more closely matches the given fraction which is being used to make the pace figures:
5.0
2.5
What I do is figure out the time at both points and estimate each horse's time at four furlongs. It isn't perfect, but it is all you can really do unless you want to watch every replay and chart them yourself. You could also blend the beaten lengths to give a decent estimate.
The was 0.1 back at 3f and 5 lengths back at 4.5f, so you can estimate the horse was ~3.35 lengths back at 4f.
The was 5.0 back at 3f and 2.5 lengths back at 4.5f, so you can estimate the horse was ~3.33 lengths back at 4f.
Obviously the passed the at some point between the 3f call and the 4.5 call and based on the beaten lengths the 4f point looks like a pretty good estimate of when it happened.
Main point is you do the best you can with poorly constructed data. Why in 2018 we're still using calls and fractions that don't match is beyond me.
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07-19-2018, 10:07 AM
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 15,125
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07-19-2018, 11:01 AM
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#4
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay68802
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I think you meant to say "mis-time from the gate."
As far as BRIS pace figs, here is a chart of what value they represent, based on races extracted from Multicaps. This applies to dirt, poly, and turf.
Each point of pace, E1, E2 or route E2 is equal to .10 second.
For what it's worth, maybe you can use it.
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Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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07-19-2018, 11:22 AM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
The second call can be a little tricky at these short distance because the time is given for four furlongs but the call is given at a different point. Here is a good reference point:
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/stati...calltimeschart
Could be that BRIS does what I also do. I match the calls to the fractions given. In this case, here is how the second call looks, but keep in mind it comes at the 3 furlong mark:
0.1
1.0
The next call is the stretch call, which always comes one furlong before the finish. So in this case it is 4.5 furlongs, which more closely matches the given fraction which is being used to make the pace figures:
5.0
2.5
What I do is figure out the time at both points and estimate each horse's time at four furlongs. It isn't perfect, but it is all you can really do unless you want to watch every replay and chart them yourself. You could also blend the beaten lengths to give a decent estimate.
The was 0.1 back at 3f and 5 lengths back at 4.5f, so you can estimate the horse was ~3.35 lengths back at 4f.
The was 5.0 back at 3f and 2.5 lengths back at 4.5f, so you can estimate the horse was ~3.33 lengths back at 4f.
Obviously the passed the at some point between the 3f call and the 4.5 call and based on the beaten lengths the 4f point looks like a pretty good estimate of when it happened.
Main point is you do the best you can with poorly constructed data. Why in 2018 we're still using calls and fractions that don't match is beyond me.
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Thanks CJ & Tom, I was thinking that only 5f was using 3f. for 2nd call, thought that 5.5f was like the 6f, duh. Okay, using your estimates for lengths back at 2nd call(4f) we have:
3.35 bl's = 80
3.33 bl's. = 82 so .02/100's of a length = 2 pts.
It almost looks like they're using 4.5 f mark. No need to respond. These two look to be the favorites today.
__________________
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.
Last edited by FakeNameChanged; 07-19-2018 at 11:24 AM.
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07-19-2018, 11:27 AM
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#6
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whosonfirst
Thanks CJ & Tom, I was thinking that only 5f was using 3f. for 2nd call, thought that 5.5f was like the 6f, duh. Okay, using your estimates for lengths back at 2nd call(4f) we have:
3.35 bl's = 80
3.33 bl's. = 82 so .02/100's of a length = 2 pts.
It almost looks like they're using 4.5 f mark. No need to respond. These two look to be the favorites today.
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They very well could be using the 4.5, makes sense. My way is probably a little better but still just an estimate. I watched the replay and they are very close at the 4f point with the 2 horse (today's 2) slightly ahead.
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07-19-2018, 11:58 AM
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#7
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Registered user
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: FALIRIKON DELTA
Posts: 4,439
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How much better would it be for the bettor if completely accurate data existed?
I dare to say that low quality of data can very well provide higher chance for profit, assuming the necessary effort to clean and reshape it.
__________________
whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent
Ludwig Wittgenstein
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07-19-2018, 03:37 PM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,176
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Anti-climactic
So after the lessons learned on here, I went with the Philly invader, Roraima Dos, who roared home 1st at 6-1. After a long inquiry/objection, he was DQ to last. Sometimes you gotta laugh.(edit), I almost forgot, the Theresa's Honor who was the subject horse above, was the horse objecting.
__________________
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.
Last edited by FakeNameChanged; 07-19-2018 at 03:40 PM.
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07-19-2018, 04:44 PM
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#9
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,831
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I glance at the pace figs, but have seen so many anomalous numbers that I decline to use them seriously.
Their numbers for long routes are just plain ridiculous
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07-19-2018, 05:42 PM
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#10
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaLover
How much better would it be for the bettor if completely accurate data existed?
I dare to say that low quality of data can very well provide higher chance for profit, assuming the necessary effort to clean and reshape it.
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It would help the better players IMO. It would also shed a more positive light on the game. Imagine a sharp, eager newcomer to the sport with a math degree fresh out of college, then you explain the 5f and 5.5f thing to him or her. After the laughter was finished, they'd probably move on to something else.
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07-19-2018, 06:13 PM
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#11
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Registered user
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: FALIRIKON DELTA
Posts: 4,439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
It would help the better players IMO. It would also shed a more positive light on the game. Imagine a sharp, eager newcomer to the sport with a math degree fresh out of college, then you explain the 5f and 5.5f thing to him or her. After the laughter was finished, they'd probably move on to something else.
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Although I do not understand the reasoning behind the laugher, I have no doubt about the "moving on to something else"; simply stated. this "sport" does not have to offer enough of to a sharp newcomer and makes no sense for him to get hooked with it,
__________________
whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent
Ludwig Wittgenstein
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07-19-2018, 06:23 PM
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#12
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaLover
Although I do not understand the reasoning behind the laugher, I have no doubt about the "moving on to something else"; simply stated. this "sport" does not have to offer enough of to a sharp newcomer and makes no sense for him to get hooked with it,
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The laughter was trying to tell the person that horse racing gives us the position of the horses at one point but the times they run at another. To determine velocity you need to know distance traveled and the time taken to do it (as we all know), but we don't get both for the same point.
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07-20-2018, 09:36 AM
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#13
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltonKelsey
I glance at the pace figs, but have seen so many anomalous numbers that I decline to use them seriously.
Their numbers for long routes are just plain ridiculous
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You need to really filter out the noise to make them at all useful.
I draw a line through any pacelione that is not representative of today's race, ie, no sprint or turf in a dirt route, that kind of thing. A big part of it looking at the race shapes and not using any very fast or very slow shape.
Say you narrow the lines for a horse down to three - theses are his last three good races.
E2 / LP Total
98/70 - 168 +2
80/89 - 169 -14
95/72 - 167 -1
If you are using a mechanical method, ie, best of last three, you might be saying the horse is a great late runner with that 89 LP. But the slow 14 pace is the reason why - it used no energy early on. That is a line you want to get rid of.
The total of E2+LP for each line is about the same, so use one of the other two line to get a better idea of how this horse fits in today.
The way they set up their numbers, it makes it hard to use them.
__________________
Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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07-20-2018, 01:51 PM
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#14
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
If you are using a mechanical method, ie, best of last three, you might be saying the horse is a great late runner with that 89 LP. But the slow 14 pace is the reason why - it used no energy early on.
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Good point. And many times the horse with a great LP is not really a closer at all nor does he/she have the ability to close.
For "quick handicapping" I frequently look at the "Late Pace Last Race" category in the Ultimate PP's which I get for free on TS. I look for a strong closer for either exacta key horse betting or show betting at a price. I especially look to see if the Top LP horse has a significant point separation from the rest of the pack.
But many times the top closer listed is actually a speedster that went w-w and has never passed a horse in its life. Hence another reason besides yours stated above as to why the horse earned such a high LP figure. So you have to verify whether a high late pace figure horse is really a late pace type of horse by looking at its running style and how it earned that LP figure. Of course after all that, there is no guarantee that the horse will not bounce or that the jockey will not give him a bonehead ride.
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07-20-2018, 02:03 PM
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
Good point. And many times the horse with a great LP is not really a closer at all nor does he/she have the ability to close.
For "quick handicapping" I frequently look at the "Late Pace Last Race" category in the Ultimate PP's which I get for free on TS. I look for a strong closer for either exacta key horse betting or show betting at a price. I especially look to see if the Top LP horse has a significant point separation from the rest of the pack.
But many times the top closer listed is actually a speedster that went w-w and has never passed a horse in its life. Hence another reason besides yours stated above as to why the horse earned such a high LP figure. So you have to verify whether a high late pace figure horse is really a late pace type of horse by looking at its running style and how it earned that LP figure. Of course after all that, there is no guarantee that the horse will not bounce or that the jockey will not give him a bonehead ride.
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And the same thing happens with horses that have impressive half-mile ratings. Sometimes they aren't speed horses at all...but they have run in middle position against a fast pace. Their lofty half-mile ratings may indicate pace-setting potential...but these horses don't seem to know that.
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-- Hermann Hesse
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