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Old 04-12-2019, 02:39 PM   #46
highnote
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Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
Horseplayers buying a racetrack? The horseplayers are lucky if they can pay their rent on time.
Best line of the day.
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Old 04-12-2019, 02:43 PM   #47
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Another big stumbling block is the unanswered question of whether or not racing fans and more importantly non-racing fans would embrace such a change. Hard to get someone to invest big money in a concept that may or may not work. Personally I can't see a change in US gambling habits based on the HK model.
I commend Highnote for raising this topic, if for no other reason than to offer a suggestion and a means to perhaps take the N.A. game to a level that could even surpass the HK model.

There are many facets to the HK racing model which can be immediately applied to the N.A. racing. Drug restriction being just one.

Thinking that a successful model won’t work in another location is totally counterproductive in my estimation. If initiated properly through cooperation among ALL interested parties not only would local racing fans appreciate it (as much as they do in HK). When the current non-fans realize how the game has changed as far as its integrity and transparency goes, I believe that in and of itself will lure new players to the betting pools.

I say it’s not as difficult as you might imagine getting investors to believe in something that has already proven itself to work extremely well: Not for a month, not for year, but yes for decades!
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Old 04-12-2019, 03:30 PM   #48
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I commend Highnote for raising this topic, if for no other reason than to offer a suggestion and a means to perhaps take the N.A. game to a level that could even surpass the HK model.

There are many facets to the HK racing model which can be immediately applied to the N.A. racing. Drug restriction being just one.

Thinking that a successful model won’t work in another location is totally counterproductive in my estimation. If initiated properly through cooperation among ALL interested parties not only would local racing fans appreciate it (as much as they do in HK). When the current non-fans realize how the game has changed as far as its integrity and transparency goes, I believe that in and of itself will lure new players to the betting pools.

I say it’s not as difficult as you might imagine getting investors to believe in something that has already proven itself to work extremely well: Not for a month, not for year, but yes for decades!
It works in a government-run monopoly where the government owns and operates all forms of gambling. Explain how that is similar to the United States in any way. You ignore the Mount Everest-sized difference between the two countries in order to spout the same clichés over and over and over.
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Old 04-12-2019, 04:19 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by castaway01 View Post
It works in a government-run monopoly where the government owns and operates all forms of gambling. Explain how that is similar to the United States in any way. You ignore the Mount Everest-sized difference between the two countries in order to spout the same clichés over and over and over.
Were you playing this game before drugs ran rampant throughout the industry and eventually became legalized?
You know, when horses were running every 7 to 14 days instead of every 4 weeks or more.
They were not only running with less rest between races, but running faster and more consistently!

You seem to have a very limited framework for the imagination.

We shouldn’t need government intervention in a free enterprise society, but the way things are going in the local racing industry it might not be a bad idea for the government to establish nationwide rules, regulations and guidelines. Its unfortunate that the egotistical greed throughout the industry has really hampered its growth and affected so many players in a negative way.

The things that I mention are not “clichés” they’re facts. If you and others can’t see the writing on wall that’s your own short-sightedness. In the meantime, I personally find racing in HK to be a refreshing change and will continue to support their game.
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Old 04-12-2019, 08:27 PM   #50
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I commend Highnote for raising this topic, if for no other reason than to offer a suggestion and a means to perhaps take the N.A. game to a level that could even surpass the HK model.

There are many facets to the HK racing model which can be immediately applied to the N.A. racing. Drug restriction being just one.

Thinking that a successful model won’t work in another location is totally counterproductive in my estimation. If initiated properly through cooperation among ALL interested parties not only would local racing fans appreciate it (as much as they do in HK). When the current non-fans realize how the game has changed as far as its integrity and transparency goes, I believe that in and of itself will lure new players to the betting pools.

I say it’s not as difficult as you might imagine getting investors to believe in something that has already proven itself to work extremely well: Not for a month, not for year, but yes for decades!
I think there has to be something a little bit more concrete than a belief something might happen before money is poured into an experiment. Yes there are many things that could be tried but from my own experience that's not easy to accomplish. I was a member of the NTRA Player's Panel that made numerous recommendations that were summarily ignored.

Change the game all you want but it will still be horse racing and the current non-fan has little interest in getting involved.
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Old 04-12-2019, 08:56 PM   #51
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I think there has to be something a little bit more concrete than a belief something might happen before money is poured into an experiment. Yes there are many things that could be tried but from my own experience that's not easy to accomplish. I was a member of the NTRA Player's Panel that made numerous recommendations that were summarily ignored.

Change the game all you want but it will still be horse racing and the current non-fan has little interest in getting involved.
You're right. Based on my experience, track executives will probably not listen to anything recommended by horseplayers.

When Yavapai was facing bankruptcy they invited HANA members for a visit to discuss some ideas. Unfortunately, it was too late for Yavapai to be saved. Nice track and nice people, though.
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Old 04-12-2019, 09:02 PM   #52
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It works in a government-run monopoly where the government owns and operates all forms of gambling. Explain how that is similar to the United States in any way. You ignore the Mount Everest-sized difference between the two countries in order to spout the same clichés over and over and over.
From what I can tell the Hong Kong Jockey Club operates the two tracks in HK and it is a limited liability company authorized to run racing by the Chinese government. This sounds similar to NYRA -- a quasi-state agency currently under control of the state.

If you don't think NYRA is a monopoly then go try to open up a racetrack across the street from one the three NYRA tracks and run a meeting at the same time they are running. Never happen.
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Old 04-13-2019, 02:35 PM   #53
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Highnote,
Playing Hong Kong for me is a non starter. The time of day that they hold the races is too early for my schedule.

But if they held a similar meet in North America, that would certainly get my attention. I like the fact that they run mostly older geldings. One of the problems with this sport is that many times the horse is worth more in the breeding shed than it is on the race track. Makes it virtually impossible for one to become a fan of a horse.

I do have a question. How do you handicap Hong Kong races? What product(s) do you use? I believe Nitro (you can correct me if I'm wrong) uses the tote primarily. Is your method without speed figures and trainer stats?
Sorry if you already answered this.
Thanks
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Old 04-13-2019, 03:29 PM   #54
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Highnote,
Playing Hong Kong for me is a non starter. The time of day that they hold the races is too early for my schedule.

I do have a question. How do you handicap Hong Kong races? What product(s) do you use? I believe Nitro (you can correct me if I'm wrong) uses the tote primarily. Is your method without speed figures and trainer stats?
Sorry if you already answered this.
Thanks
I make speed figures and use the free past performances in the Hong Kong jockey club website.

I also keep a database of the racing there. All the data is free on the website.
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Old 04-13-2019, 04:10 PM   #55
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Highnote,
Playing Hong Kong for me is a non starter. The time of day that they hold the races is too early for my schedule.

But if they held a similar meet in North America, that would certainly get my attention. I like the fact that they run mostly older geldings. One of the problems with this sport is that many times the horse is worth more in the breeding shed than it is on the race track. Makes it virtually impossible for one to become a fan of a horse.

I do have a question. How do you handicap Hong Kong races? What product(s) do you use? I believe Nitro (you can correct me if I'm wrong) uses the tote primarily. Is your method without speed figures and trainer stats?
Sorry if you already answered this.

Thanks
You're correct. The only information I ever use comes directly from all of the betting activities and both M/L's.

Here are a few links related to the PPs for April 14th that might be of interest: ( I would disregard the 1st Race - A Griffin or Maiden type race)

https://racing.hkjc.com/racing/conte...tarter_all.pdf

https://www.hkjc.com/english/formguide/1.html

https://www.hkjc.com/english/speedgu..._Clickspeedmap
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Old 04-16-2019, 04:53 PM   #56
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I commend Highnote for raising this topic, if for no other reason than to offer a suggestion and a means to perhaps take the N.A. game to a level that could even surpass the HK model.

There are many facets to the HK racing model which can be immediately applied to the N.A. racing. Drug restriction being just one.

Thinking that a successful model won’t work in another location is totally counterproductive in my estimation. If initiated properly through cooperation among ALL interested parties not only would local racing fans appreciate it (as much as they do in HK). When the current non-fans realize how the game has changed as far as its integrity and transparency goes, I believe that in and of itself will lure new players to the betting pools.

I say it’s not as difficult as you might imagine getting investors to believe in something that has already proven itself to work extremely well: Not for a month, not for year, but yes for decades!
Yes, there are some people in this industry who get it.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...barbara-banke/

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To win in the long-term, we must demonstrate to both existing and future racing fans that our industry acts with integrity and elevated standards of care to protect the health of our athletes. The morass of conflicting state medication thresholds and rules is too confusing and slow to change. We must achieve comprehensive reform that is meaningful both to horse owners and the general public. We would benefit significantly and immediately if we standardized best practices across our industry in medication, regulation, and testing. We must make ourselves easy to identify as well organized and responsibly self-governed. We should pool resources and add centralized promotion, crisis management and public relations efforts to our endeavors.
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Old 04-26-2019, 08:10 AM   #57
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Hey Highnote, you’ve criticized several here who do not like your suggestions for bringing HK-type racing to the U.S. and for not offering an alternative “solution” well, I do like your suggestions but I like mine better. Here is my brief outline. Comments welcomed.

The goal here is to bring the fans back into the stands. Make it attractive to sports fans like the other major sports If they come, there will be money to be made by the tracks selling beer, concessions, etc., as well as a huge handle. Remember, back in the day, it used to be the most popular spectator sport after baseball and boxing. It can be that again.

First, all tracks should turn into casinos, like PARX, if they already haven’t done so. People don’t want to bet on racing anymore. People want to gamble on slots ,cards, dice, slots, NFL, NBA, etc. $137.5 billion was bet in casinos in 2018, vs. $10 billion on horse racing, and that last figure is dwindling.

Getting rid of race-day medication would be the next step, which would help improve the image of the sport, including reducing the breakdowns.

Now that we did that, our model is going to be similar to the USGA professional golf tour, we’ll call it the thoroughbred horse tour(THT). We will select ten tracks, maybe , SAR, BEL, Parx, Laurel, Oaklawn, Santa Anita, Del Mar, Keenland, Gulfstream, Churchill and maybe Monmouth, the other “tracks” would be fulltime casinos, and not offer thoroughbred racing, maybe they could offer harness racing, but there would be no overlap between the horses running on the THT, The 10 tracks will be the only ones in the country to have a thoroughbred meet. Only one track will be operating at a time. Each meet will be five weeks(the other 47 weeks the track will be a casino). The meet will run seven days per week with eight races per day with a field of 14 horses per race. Only one track will be running at a time. Each day in the country there would be racing at one of these tracks, and no other. A horse can only run once at each meet, so after it runs it can be shipped to the next track in the cycle, to get ready for the next meet. There will be 14 horse fields for every race since only one track will be running each day there will be many lining up. The purse for each race will be a minimum of $250,000, with the first 10 finishers winning money. Doing the math, we will need 7x5x14 (490) horses for each meet. An owner can only enter two horses per meet, so we will need 245 owners for the THT.

The tracks would have to put up the purse money, but since they would be the only race in the country happening at that time, their handle will be huge. And they wouldn’t have to supplement purses the rest of the year — I’m sure casinos, like Parx, would rather supplement five weeks per year rather than 52.

For the horseplayer this would be like Christmas morning every day. It would be like betting a breeders cup each week! We’d get seven days per week of eight races with 14 horse fields. It would be very lucrative to be on the THT so owners would be lining up for it. As I mentioned, the purse for each race will be a minimum of $250,000 , and the THT would be responsible for setting the purses for the other seven races that day. Just like the USGA demands a certain level of prize money for their tournaments.

If a breakdown happens, that owner and trainer would be suspended for six months. If the THT decides it’s the jockeys fault, then he gets suspended.
Now I know that some of you would think these ideas are silly, unreasonable and impossible to implement, but tell me this, would you bet on these races?
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Old 04-26-2019, 09:07 AM   #58
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Hey Highnote, you’ve criticized several here who do not like your suggestions for bringing HK-type racing to the U.S. and for not offering an alternative “solution” well, I do like your suggestions but I like mine better. Here is my brief outline. Comments welcomed.

The goal here is to bring the fans back into the stands. Make it attractive to sports fans like the other major sports If they come, there will be money to be made by the tracks selling beer, concessions, etc., as well as a huge handle. Remember, back in the day, it used to be the most popular spectator sport after baseball and boxing. It can be that again.

First, all tracks should turn into casinos, like PARX, if they already haven’t done so. People don’t want to bet on racing anymore. People want to gamble on slots ,cards, dice, slots, NFL, NBA, etc. $137.5 billion was bet in casinos in 2018, vs. $10 billion on horse racing, and that last figure is dwindling.

Getting rid of race-day medication would be the next step, which would help improve the image of the sport, including reducing the breakdowns.

Now that we did that, our model is going to be similar to the USGA professional golf tour, we’ll call it the thoroughbred horse tour(THT). We will select ten tracks, maybe , SAR, BEL, Parx, Laurel, Oaklawn, Santa Anita, Del Mar, Keenland, Gulfstream, Churchill and maybe Monmouth, the other “tracks” would be fulltime casinos, and not offer thoroughbred racing, maybe they could offer harness racing, but there would be no overlap between the horses running on the THT, The 10 tracks will be the only ones in the country to have a thoroughbred meet. Only one track will be operating at a time. Each meet will be five weeks(the other 47 weeks the track will be a casino). The meet will run seven days per week with eight races per day with a field of 14 horses per race. Only one track will be running at a time. Each day in the country there would be racing at one of these tracks, and no other. A horse can only run once at each meet, so after it runs it can be shipped to the next track in the cycle, to get ready for the next meet. There will be 14 horse fields for every race since only one track will be running each day there will be many lining up. The purse for each race will be a minimum of $250,000, with the first 10 finishers winning money. Doing the math, we will need 7x5x14 (490) horses for each meet. An owner can only enter two horses per meet, so we will need 245 owners for the THT.

The tracks would have to put up the purse money, but since they would be the only race in the country happening at that time, their handle will be huge. And they wouldn’t have to supplement purses the rest of the year — I’m sure casinos, like Parx, would rather supplement five weeks per year rather than 52.

For the horseplayer this would be like Christmas morning every day. It would be like betting a breeders cup each week! We’d get seven days per week of eight races with 14 horse fields. It would be very lucrative to be on the THT so owners would be lining up for it. As I mentioned, the purse for each race will be a minimum of $250,000 , and the THT would be responsible for setting the purses for the other seven races that day. Just like the USGA demands a certain level of prize money for their tournaments.

If a breakdown happens, that owner and trainer would be suspended for six months. If the THT decides it’s the jockeys fault, then he gets suspended.
Now I know that some of you would think these ideas are silly, unreasonable and impossible to implement, but tell me this, would you bet on these races?
I like it! Very creative! I'd bet these races -- assuming my ADW offered them.

What kind of races would they be -- maidens, claimers, allowance, stakes, handicaps?
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Old 04-26-2019, 09:59 AM   #59
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I like it! Very creative! I'd bet these races -- assuming my ADW offered them.

What kind of races would they be -- maidens, claimers, allowance, stakes, handicaps?
I’m thinking that it would be the same type races that are offered today, except NO CLAIMING RACES.

You and I want the same thing. We want to be able to wake up in the morning being enthused about playing a card. The last time that happened to me was the Breeders Cup in November. Since then, I’ve been betting the cards that featured the major Derby prep races — the best was Aqueduct’s Wood card, but even that was borderline putrid.

The tracks left out would squawk, but if they could operate as a casino, I’m sure the track president would love it. Obviously, Saratoga and Del Mar wouldn’t need the casino thing.

The issue here with the minor tracks is, the reality of the situation is that that they just don’t have enough money to hold a thoroughbred meet where the health and safety of the athletes is the No. 1 priority. Their priority is to get full fields and they let the trainers cut corners and do anything they want as long as the starting gate is full — which they can’t accomplish anyway. There is the issue of caring for the animal after retirement, many of them end up as dog food, which drags down the entire industry. And when a breakdown happens at a minor track it affects the entire industry.

When the issue of banning dog racing here in Florida was the topic, the ads said “Do you realize that X number of greyhounds died on the race tracks last year?” They didn’t bother to separate out Florida, it was the whole country.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:28 AM   #60
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I’m thinking that it would be the same type races that are offered today, except NO CLAIMING RACES.

You and I want the same thing. We want to be able to wake up in the morning being enthused about playing a card. The last time that happened to me was the Breeders Cup in November. Since then, I’ve been betting the cards that featured the major Derby prep races — the best was Aqueduct’s Wood card, but even that was borderline putrid.

The tracks left out would squawk, but if they could operate as a casino, I’m sure the track president would love it. Obviously, Saratoga and Del Mar wouldn’t need the casino thing.

The issue here with the minor tracks is, the reality of the situation is that that they just don’t have enough money to hold a thoroughbred meet where the health and safety of the athletes is the No. 1 priority. Their priority is to get full fields and they let the trainers cut corners and do anything they want as long as the starting gate is full — which they can’t accomplish anyway. There is the issue of caring for the animal after retirement, many of them end up as dog food, which drags down the entire industry. And when a breakdown happens at a minor track it affects the entire industry.

When the issue of banning dog racing here in Florida was the topic, the ads said “Do you realize that X number of greyhounds died on the race tracks last year?” They didn’t bother to separate out Florida, it was the whole country.

You always make great points RB, but what about racing in Nebraska?


We go to your very sensible model, I'd have to travel well over 500 miles to be at any live racing. We all love watching these beautiful animals in the flesh, and on the track with the hooves pounding and the excitement only an at the track experience can deliver.



Are you saying it should only be an "elitism" sport?
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