Remembering Brian Terry

[Tom]

http://www.rememberbrianterry.com/wh...ian-terry.html

A former serviceman, who served his country, a border agent who died in the line of duty, murdered by a drug thug who armed by Eric Holder.

The president of the US, the former speaker of the house, the black caucus.....all say his life was not worth spit. They refuse to cooperate in the legal investigation of his death, one that the US Attorney general has outright lied about already - and it has been proven.


Vote democrat......the scum of the earth need love, too.

[bigmack]

Deplorable putz needs to dig deeper than 7000 measly documents for some answers.

[Tom]

The Black Caucus walked out of the Capital when the vote to hold this reprehensible snake accountable.......the BC is nothing but a disgrace - a bunch of racist ass clowns who are far worse than the KKK.

Keep walking boys......the Congress is far better without you low life maggots.

[whiptastic]

Originally Posted by Tom

http://www.rememberbrianterry.com/wh...ian-terry.html

A former serviceman, who served his country, a border agent who died in the line of duty, murdered by a drug thug who armed by Eric Holder.

The president of the US, the former speaker of the house, the black caucus.....all say his life was not worth spit. They refuse to cooperate in the legal investigation of his death, one that the US Attorney general has outright lied about already - and it has been proven.


Vote democrat......the scum of the earth need love, too.

I'm genuinely interested in the bolded part above, and was wondering where I could find some specific evidence on this. I've been trying to find an unbiased source to do a "real" investigation on the subject, but so far I've not found much. I read an article from Fortune that indicated there was not program to "walk" guns down to Mexico and that the straw purchases couldn't be stopped because according to Arizona law, they were technically legal. So, I was wondering if there is evidence that: 1. the actual gun that killed Brian Terry was traced to F & F, 2. the guns found at the scene could have been legally interdicted, 3. the ATF should be more active in confiscating guns that originate from technically legal purchases.

I'm not looking to start a flame war on this. I am honestly curious about the facts because it looks to me like most of the heated rhetoric on the subject is politically motivated. The Fortune piece that I read indicated that there was a lot of blame to go around in both the ATF and the federal prosecutors office.

It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn't necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn't mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.

I'm not sure that the ATF field agents had the authority to confiscate the weapons in question.

Ten days after the meeting with Hurley, a Saturday, Jaime Avila, a transient, admitted methamphetamine user, bought three WASR-10 rifles at the Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Ariz. The next day, a helpful Lone Wolf employee faxed Avila's purchase form to ATF to flag the suspicious activity. It was the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday weekend, so the agents didn't receive the fax until Tuesday, according to a contemporaneous case report. By that time, the legally purchased guns had been gone for three days. The agents had never seen the weapons and had no chance to seize them. But they entered the serial numbers into their gun database. Two of these were later recovered at Brian Terry's murder scene.

In my view, none of this exonerates Holder from a possible cover-up. Time will tell on that aspect of the case. If he tried to minimize or cover-up aspects of this case, he shouldn't be allowed to get away with that. However, it looks like trying to put the responsibility of agent Terry's death on Holder is not reasonable.

[Tom]

The guns were put into the hands of the drug lords by Holder's Justice Department. He failed to control them as planned and a man is dead.

Holder is a murdered and deserves the fry.
Obama may or may not be a co-conspirator, but his actions shout guilty.
In any event, Obama is already a serial-mass murderer, and we should be petitioning the World Court to try him for war crimes.

Holder lied about his involvement, that is proven.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by whiptastic

I'm genuinely interested in the bolded part above, and was wondering where I could find some specific evidence on this. I've been trying to find an unbiased source to do a "real" investigation on the subject, but so far I've not found much. I read an article from Fortune that indicated there was not program to "walk" guns down to Mexico and that the straw purchases couldn't be stopped because according to Arizona law, they were technically legal. So, I was wondering if there is evidence that: 1. the actual gun that killed Brian Terry was traced to F & F, 2. the guns found at the scene could have been legally interdicted, 3. the ATF should be more active in confiscating guns that originate from technically legal purchases.

I'm not looking to start a flame war on this. I am honestly curious about the facts because it looks to me like most of the heated rhetoric on the subject is politically motivated. The Fortune piece that I read indicated that there was a lot of blame to go around in both the ATF and the federal prosecutors office.



I'm not sure that the ATF field agents had the authority to confiscate the weapons in question.



In my view, none of this exonerates Holder from a possible cover-up. Time will tell on that aspect of the case. If he tried to minimize or cover-up aspects of this case, he shouldn't be allowed to get away with that. However, it looks like trying to put the responsibility of agent Terry's death on Holder is not reasonable.

Thanks for posting the link to the Fortune article. I saw it elsewhere last night and started to read it, but got tired and went to bed. This morning I forgot where I had found it.
The article definitely paints a different picture from what we have been hearing. The fault for the death of Brian Terry should be placed directly at the doorstep of the NRA and its refusal to allow the passage of even the most reasonable gun laws.

In Arizona there are no limits to the number guns a person can buy. There is no waiting period and no permits required. You can resell the guns you buy even if you say that is not your intent. If those guns are used in the commission of a crime there has to be direct proof that you knew that crime was going to be committed for you to be charged. Just because you sold a machine gun to Al Capone does not mean you knew how he would use it. According to Arizona gun laws.

The article points out that, contrary to published reports and public perception, ATF never deliberately allowed guns to walk to Mexico.

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

Reading the Fortune article, one could get the impression that the prosecutors, who work for the Justice Department, were responsible for the failure to control the guns and prosecute the offenders. However prosecutors can only act within the confines of the laws at hand.

Much of the information which started the investigation came for an ATF agent named John Dodson. Dodson has been described by superiors and colleagues as "lazy, disorganized and a troublemaker.

Of course all of this is in an article in Fortune Magazine; a notoriously liberal publication.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by Tom

The guns were put into the hands of the drug lords by Holder's Justice Department. He failed to control them as planned and a man is dead.

Holder is a murdered and deserves the fry.
Obama may or may not be a co-conspirator, but his actions shout guilty.
In any event, Obama is already a serial-mass murderer, and we should be petitioning the World Court to try him for war crimes.

Holder lied about his involvement, that is proven.

Two things impress me about you.
The certainty of your opinions.
The fact that they are never right.

[Tom]

The article points out that, contrary to published reports and public perception, ATF never deliberately allowed guns to walk to Mexico.

Yes, they did.
They witnesses the guns being sold and did nothing.

[Tom]

You are two up on me.

[Jay Trotter]

Originally Posted by Tom

The guns were put into the hands of the drug lords by Holder's Justice Department. He failed to control them as planned and a man is dead.

Holder is a murdered and deserves the fry.
Obama may or may not be a co-conspirator, but his actions shout guilty.
In any event, Obama is already a serial-mass murderer, and we should be petitioning the World Court to try him for war crimes.

Holder lied about his involvement, that is proven.

Tom, I can understand your outrage at the death of a federal agent but are you more upset with the Obama administration or with the fact that guns were allowed to walk at all?

As you are aware, the first known ATF "gunwalking" operation (Operation Wide Receiver), began in 2006 under Bush. Should he be charged with conspiracy?

I have a problem with this style of crime fighting in general. Doesn't law enforcement do the same thing with drugs -- buying and selling to move up the chain to reel in the "big fish"! How many people overdose on the drugs that get loose in these operations.

Doesn't law enforcement continually cut deals with one murderer to nail his "partner in crime" to ensure at least one conviction. How could this be moral.

In my opinion, I honestly don't believe cutting deals or making illegal transactions should be a part of law enforcement. How can it be right that one murderer walks so that another can be incarcerated?

Just two cents from the peanut gallery.

[Tom]

As you are aware, the first known ATF "gunwalking" operation (Operation Wide Receiver), began in 2006 under Bush. Should he be charged with conspiracy?

And they didn't screw it up like bunch of lying bastards, did they?
My outrage is the whole GD Nazi-crat party making this a political issue when we KNOW the AG is lying through his teeth, and RACIST A HOLES have the nerve to walk out of congress. MY contempt has no limits - democrats are worse than Al Qeda.

[andtheyreoff]

Originally Posted by Tom

MY contempt has no limits - democrats are worse than Al Qeda.

Hmmm...interesting viewpoint there.

Lemme ask you a question. Suppose you knew a family member/friend/coworker/etc. who is a perfectly normal person- loving and caring, has a good job, works hard, but is a registered Democrat/supports Democrats. Would you consider them terrorist supporters who don't deserve a good life? I mean, they're Democrats, right? Who cares if they're friends of yours or "loved" ones?

What about if something bad happened to them? Would you say they deserved it, considering they support evil scum conspiring to bring down the country from the inside? If a liberal member of this board posted on here some tragedy that happened in their lives, what would you say?

[newtothegame]

here's another link you may wish to read if your interested in the Fast and Furious operation....

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obam...st-and-furious

[newtothegame]

Originally Posted by mostpost

Thanks for posting the link to the Fortune article. I saw it elsewhere last night and started to read it, but got tired and went to bed. This morning I forgot where I had found it.
The article definitely paints a different picture from what we have been hearing. The fault for the death of Brian Terry should be placed directly at the doorstep of the NRA and its refusal to allow the passage of even the most reasonable gun laws.

In Arizona there are no limits to the number guns a person can buy. There is no waiting period and no permits required. You can resell the guns you buy even if you say that is not your intent. If those guns are used in the commission of a crime there has to be direct proof that you knew that crime was going to be committed for you to be charged. Just because you sold a machine gun to Al Capone does not mean you knew how he would use it. According to Arizona gun laws.

The article points out that, contrary to published reports and public perception, ATF never deliberately allowed guns to walk to Mexico.


Reading the Fortune article, one could get the impression that the prosecutors, who work for the Justice Department, were responsible for the failure to control the guns and prosecute the offenders. However prosecutors can only act within the confines of the laws at hand.

Much of the information which started the investigation came for an ATF agent named John Dodson. Dodson has been described by superiors and colleagues as "lazy, disorganized and a troublemaker.

Of course all of this is in an article in Fortune Magazine; a notoriously liberal publication.

The part bolded is and has been the ultimate goal here I believe. libs have long wanted this. This is also what I think Issa and those are after.
F&F, in my opinion, was a way to push harder for gun control. They (meaning the ATF and DOJ) never thought it would backfire with a border agents death.
Sadly, it has come to this.

[Tom]

andtheyreoff....if they are democrat, I consider them not very bright.
They are either stupid (gullible) or rotten people.
No other possibility, imho.
You can't fix stupid.

I don't believe you can be a democrat and be a decent person unless you are very ignorant.