Meat not expensive enough? Just wait....

[whiptastic]

Originally Posted by DJofSD

Link, please.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...r-in-2011.html

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Tom

And you are saying this has no greater effect on the economy that soybean subsidies 30 years ago?

I'm not saying anything, just pointing out a fact. I'll leave it to others to figure out what the effect is.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by whiptastic

I should have been more clear, we are a net exporter of oil products.

Got ya - saw an article on that a month or so ago - exporting lots of deisel, I believe

[highnote]

Originally Posted by Tom

Bush has not been in office for 4 years.
We do NOT drill anywhere near enough to satisfy our needs - there is no excuse for the ridiculous lack of drilling going on here - both in terms of energy independence and in term of jobs.

We need more fracking in upstate NY! Frack NY!

[highnote]

Originally Posted by Steve 'StatMan'

It may have made sense to devote a large part of our former corn surpluses to fuel (I don't know) but now that there is going to be a clear corn shortage this year, it really ought to be reconsidered. We need the food, plus stable food prices - as well as gas prices. It it less expensive, or more expenside, or about the same, to add ethanol to our gasoline?

I don't know that there will be a corn shortage this year, but next year there certainly will be. I drove through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska and S. Dakota this month and in my 50 years of making that trip I have never seen as much devastation. The corn crop is ruined. Ohio, Indiana and eastern Illinois were not too bad, but the other states were terrible.

We will definitely see higher prices in corn, meat and gas next year. Stock up now if you can.

4 years ago when I drove through those same states my wife and I could not believe how much corn we saw -- never had we seen so much planted. When you put all your eggs in one basket you have to assume the risk. Hopefully, those farmers had crop insurance or are long corn futures.

Warren Buffett has said many times it is stupid to rely on food plants for ethanol.

I'm not crazy about fracking, but it does solve some of the domestic fuel problems.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by highnote

We need more fracking in upstate NY! Frack NY!

Right on. Cross over the border to Penn and they are farting money. Come back to NY and we are selling pencils on the street.

NY is the worst POS state in the union, bar none.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Tom

Bush has not been in office for 4 years.
We do NOT drill anywhere near enough to satisfy our needs - there is no excuse for the ridiculous lack of drilling going on here - both in terms of energy independence and in term of jobs.

I don't think we'll ever achieve energy independence in this country until we do on an energy diet. Energy is still relatively cheap, therefore, when new energy consuming technology comes along we don't hesitate to buy it. My family first got electricity when I was in elementary school. The only things it was used for was lighting, a fan to cool the house and a four tube AM radio. Gasoline was used for the one car the family had, the tractor and the combine harvester. We burned coal in a pot bellied stove for heat. We had another coal fired stove for cooking. For storing perishable food there was a daily delivery of a block of ice for the "ice box." Laundry was done with a tub and wash board, then hung out to dry. Later Mom did laundry in a washing machine powered by a small gasoline engine.

Today the AM radio is an AM/FM/CD player. It's been joined by several TVs, a Blu Ray player, a video game and a cable box. We have three cars and a motorcycle. The pot bellied stove is now central heating/air condition with a blower to distribute it to every room in the house. The cooking stove is now an electric range. It's been joined by a microwave, an electric can opener, a toaster, an electric jar opener and a dishwasher. We have an enormous refrigerator and a freezer. Then there's the washing machine and electric dryer. Finally there are several computers. All this takes more energy.

Even if we do drill, drill, drill, I foresee the price of energy growing faster than inflation. When the price of gasoline hits $100 per gallon and it becomes obvious that the government can't do anything about it, the military will have dibs on all forms of energy. Then the trucking industry, railroads and airlines will outbid the car owners. People will demand public transportation and the automobile industry will collapse.

I think this process will take from 25 to 100 years, with 50 years being most likely.

[BlueShoe]

The corn crop is ruined but still much of what's left must go into producing useless fuel that no one wants and that requires more resources and energy to produce than it allegedly saves? And the EPA is just "looking into" amending the policy? In the meantime offshore drilling and creation of newer more effective refineries has been suppressed while the Keystone pipeline was forbidden? All this and more, and the eco-freak greenies and most of the Left wants more restrictions and "green" controls and projects?

[Tom]

There are only three viable forms of energy at this time, and for the foreseeable future - coal, oil, nuclear.
Nothing else will fill our demands.

To not drill, baby, drill, is stupid, baby, stupid.

Who but a total moron or a terrorist with an agenda would use food for fuel?

[BlueShoe]

Originally Posted by Tom

NY is the worst POS state in the union, bar none.

No, no, like I keep telling everyone over and over again, we're Number One when it comes to the most bleeped up state in the nation. In virtually every study, survey, and poll California battles it out with three or four other Blue States for the honor (?) of ranking on the bottom, taking into consideration several different factors. We are the poster child for Liberalism in Action, since the demented electorate has seen fit to elect far left Democrats to every single state wide elective office. We are the state that has given the Republic such stalwart public servants as Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer and Maxine Waters, and at home, after a nearly 30 year hiatus, have brought one time Flower Child Jerry "Moonbeam" Brown back to head our state government. For these and other numerous reasons, California is thus qualified to wear the mantle of the primary looney bin of these United States.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by BlueShoe

No, no, like I keep telling everyone over and over again, we're Number One when it comes to the most bleeped up state in the nation. In virtually every study, survey, and poll California battles it out with three or four other Blue States for the honor (?) of ranking on the bottom, taking into consideration several different factors. We are the poster child for Liberalism in Action, since the demented electorate has seen fit to elect far left Democrats to every single state wide elective office. We are the state that has given the Republic such stalwart public servants as Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer and Maxine Waters, and at home, after a nearly 30 year hiatus, have brought one time Flower Child Jerry "Moonbeam" Brown back to head our state government. For these and other numerous reasons, California is thus qualified to wear the mantle of the primary looney bin of these United States.

I'm ashamed to admit it but that's why I love this place. For the first time in my life I can say, "I didn't do that" and not be lying.

[bigmack]

Originally Posted by TJDave

I'm ashamed to admit it but that's why I love this place. For the first time in my life I can say, "I didn't do that" and not be lying.

Bingo. 'Sides, have you seen this place? What a gem!

I love CA despite SO much.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by BlueShoe

...useless fuel that no one wants and that requires more resources and energy to produce than it allegedly saves?

• Isn't ethanol a component of the gasoline you buy at the pump?
• If it "requires more resources and energy to produce than it allegedly saves" wouldn't market forces shut down the practice?

Just asking.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Tom

There are only three viable forms of energy at this time, and for the foreseeable future - coal, oil, nuclear.

Nuclear scares the hell out of me. IMHO the question is not "will it melt down?" but "when will it melt down?"

Originally Posted by Tom

Who but a total moron or a terrorist with an agenda would use food for fuel?

A capitalist?
Seriously, if you have 10 tons of corn and a choice of making ethanol or cornbread, doesn't your choice essentially come down to which will make you the most money?

[Tom]

But nature is not the biggest factor in this crisis -- the government is. Specifically, the federal government's ethanol mandate, which requires that 13.2 billion gallons of corn-based ethanol be produced in 2012.

It is not a choice.
I think if left to the market, ethanol would disappear.