I'm shocked, more cheating from Dutrow

[alysheba88]

It is obvious whats going on and has been for years. But as long as even horse players will be apologists for the cheaters nothing concrete will change

[JPinMaryland]

would it be possible to penalize owner in this way: Any trainer caught doing soemthing illegal, any horse that won under him in the past month has to give back the prize money?

[aaron]

Since when do horseplayers have a say ?
Andy Beyer has been wailing about the super trainers for years and nothing has ever been done. Race Tracks can deny stall space,but the way things are today we'd end up with 4 horse fields.
This is a problem that should have been taken care of years ago.Race tracks always act after the problem has escalated,when its too late.They never stop the problem in the beginning.

[alysheba88]

Most people with common sense knew Barry Bonds was cheating. You dont think Giant management suspected? You dont think they would have acted differently if they would have had to forfeit games if caught?

Drugs in racing is an epidemic. Worse than the steroid problem was in baseball. Most are still in deep denial

[JWBurnie]

IMO, the track is responsible for what occurs. The only thing they care about is having enough horses to fill races. Whether the horse is sound or not, doesn't really mater. As long as they make their profit, they couldn't care less about the horses.

Does anyone know who pockets the money from these fines? Wouldn't be surprised if it's a win / win for the track.

[karlskorner]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=37530

Appears everybody is more worried about the problem than Mr. Dutrow

[JWBurnie]

Originally Posted by karlskorner

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=37530

Appears everybody is more worried about the problem than Mr. Dutrow

The NYSR should tell him to extend his "Carnivale" for another 6 months.

[skate]

ELA;


thanks for that post

[44PACE]

Everyone knows what happened with the Breeders cup p6 a few years ago. What is there to stop this from happening in everday Trifecta and Superfecta pools?. I don't bet these but I do look at the payoffs and a lot of these are paying way less than expected. When you can't see the probable payoffs like you do in win or exactas it would be easy to skim.

[john del riccio]

I hope our esteemed host doesn't take umbridge with my comments here, he has a valid concerns about making contreversial statments.

As part of making figures, you get "feel" for what level each and every classification of horses typically perform at. When something "bizarre" hasppens, natural human curiousity lends itself to seeing who trains AND
owns the horse in question. Over time, it becomes obvious that something
unusual is going on. By making note of these occurances over an extended period of time, an opinion starts to form that all is not as it appears.

When Henry was alive, and I was only a subscriber to his ratings, we would often have talks regarding performance enhancing medications that he had
felt strongly were being administered. He stated that these horses were typically ones that went to the lead and simply just didn't "get tired".
Since Henry passed away in 1998, I beleive that the medication he was
referring to at that time, unbeknownst to him, was clenbuterol. Once this
drug was "uncovered" it was deemed to not be allowed as a race-day medication but could be administered for thereputic purposes to improved
lung function ie., if you can breath better you can run faster and longer).
Different juristictions have different medication policies as to how many days before a race you can administer clenbuterol now, but that is a separate issue.

One of Henry's other pet peeves was the home of the Blue Bloods; that is kentucky. He would hardly ever wager on KY races and went out of hi sway on many many occasions to inform me that when faced with a KY shipper, I should draw a line through any races in the PP's that were run in KY if todays race was being contested ANYWHERE else but KY. I cannot tell you how many days I cashed a nice bet by doing that. When SAR came around and all the KY shippers showed up and got hammered at the windows, I simply rated them on races they rasn outside KY and if they were competitive, they were
live, if they were KY wonders, i just tossed them. KY allows the highest level of lasix to be administered of any juristication which allows for OTHER medications to be masked quite easily; such as bicarbonates (CO2 levels) AKA
milkshakes.... This has calmed down to some degree recently but not sufficiently.

EPO (Epogen) had been administered to increase blood cell count (i can't remeber whether it was red or white) and is typically given to cancer patients. It got SO BAD that delware park put on their claim slips that if a horse tested positive after a race in which you claimed it out of, the claim would be voided (oh yeah, it would cost you an extra 50.00 to have this special test performed).

Anyone that thinks this isn't going on at varying levels ain different juristictions is only fooling themselves.

The claiming game was put into place to allow horsement to appraise their stock and run them where they thought they'd be competitive. The key word is competitive. If a particluar consistently puts his horses in too cheap, they'll get claimed away, too high, the owners go broke. It was a checks and balances approach which makes sense. When 10,000 claimers, for example, are showing running times that make the race look like a money allowance contest over a surface that doesn't appear to be changing speed relative to
surrounding races, an experience figure maker makes note. When this scenario plays out repeatedly, and the same "cast of characters" show up in the trainer and or owner lines, its obvious.

The exclaimation point on this whole process culminates after a horse leaves
a super-trainers care. Can it perform at "close" to the level it was performing previously. Yes, there are cases where a soundness issue takes precidence,
but over a larger sample, it becomes clear that 90% of the horses leaving a particluar trainers care don't suddenly develop soundness issues. There are many trainers that are just good horsemen (I mention Bruce Levine being
one of them) and its hard to move up a horse claimed from him. But I am not even talking about moving up a horse taken from a super trainer that completely falls apart. Just look at how horses perform after they are claimed from certain barns. You will see things from a different perspective.

John

[JWBurnie]

Well stated John.

What's your take on vet's? Specifically, state vet's and allowing these horses to run. They know better then anyone.

[john del riccio]

Originally Posted by JWBurnie

Well stated John.

What's your take on vet's? Specifically, state vet's and allowing these horses to run. They know better then anyone.

I will say this. I had a horse at FG several years ago that was with a trainer
that we gave the horse to that just got beat 5 lengths in a nw3x race in NY.
The "old trainer" was Ann Merryman, she is a great horsewoman, cares deeply for the horses in general, and is not an abuser of vets. Our new trainer, won 2 races and a third at the FG and we didn't receive a vet bill until 4 months after we gave him the horse. In fact we received all 4 months of vet bills at once at an average cost of over 1000.00. When I looked through the bills and disected them, I enlisted the help of a much more experienced owner. When they reviewed the bills they told me my horse must be a real cripple. I consulted with Ann on this and was informed that he was just as sound as he was when he left as when he arrived; in fact he was always a very sound horse.

This incident prompted me to call the trainer to question the medications on the vet bill and I was infomed that my horse had "issues". Needless to say, after many go-arounds between him and th evet, I agreed to pay ONLY 1/2 the vet bills and we moved the horse to another trainer who was no stranger to horseflesh and had a pretty simpressive resume. Our horse never ran
as well for this new trainer was he did for the previous trainer and had NO soundness issues at all. When you see things like this first hand, its sort of hard not to piece togther the puzzle.

John

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by john del riccio

I hope our esteemed host doesn't take umbridge with my comments here, he has a valid concerns about making contreversial statments.

Umbridge? You have to be kidding! Those last two posts were excellent. Thank you for sharing!

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by JWBurnie

IMO, the track is responsible for what occurs. The only thing they care about is having enough horses to fill races. Whether the horse is sound or not, doesn't really mater.

I'm afraid you have cut to the heart of the matter. That's why Suff's idea of closing racetracks is one that may go a long way to making a real positive impact on the game.

[john del riccio]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Umbridge? You have to be kidding! Those last two posts were excellent. Thank you for sharing!

Its a respect thing, you have a great forum here & I just want to keep
within the rules...

John