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Old 03-13-2019, 02:45 PM   #1
mikesal57
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Another Article pro "Free" data....

https://racingthinktank.com/reports/...ee-racing-data


Would more people be inclined to bet more or create their own programs if data was free?

But the dark side would be the commercial programs that people sell along with the heavy cost of data. Commercial developers now get about 20% of the high cost of data ....without that they would lose 10's of thousands of dollars.
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:59 PM   #2
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I'm an independent racing software developer (JCapper.)

Imo, the initiatives proposed by the Thoroughbred Idea Foundation are a good first step towards increasing total dollars BET on this sport.

I see that as a good thing. (A rising tide lifts all boats.)



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Old 03-13-2019, 04:15 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff P View Post
I'm an independent racing software developer (JCapper.)

Imo, the initiatives proposed by the Thoroughbred Idea Foundation are a good first step towards increasing total dollars BET on this sport.

I see that as a good thing. (A rising tide lifts all boats.)



-jp

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Thanks Jeff...interesting...

Being a commercial developer yourself....how would you fair if it was free? if you dont mind...

Last edited by mikesal57; 03-13-2019 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:20 PM   #4
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I agree - basic, generic data that can be collected from charts, newspapers, etc. Of course not proprietary speed or pace figs or thing like that.

In baseball, they can tell how a guy hits when he wears day old underwear, has a blood alcohol level of .05, and faces a southpaw with a hangover. In racing, you get BS worthless stats in PPs you pay through the nose for.

But anyone who follows racing know those who run it are NOT the brightest of the best. Most could not spell c-u-s-t-o-m-e-r let alone know how to treat one.
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Old 03-13-2019, 05:35 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by mikesal57 View Post
Thanks Jeff...interesting...

Being a commercial developer yourself....how would you fair if it was free? if you dont mind...
What if racing's collective decision makers underwent a form reversal and implemented initiatives such as the following?
  • Free public access to basic data in a db friendly format.
  • Make accuracy of the data an actual priority. (Do away with runups. Report the actual distance run by the horses. Time each horse separately from gate open to finish line AND for each segment of the actual distance run.)
  • Penny breakage and/or other forms of takeout reduction.
  • Fixed odds wagering.
  • Elimination of raceday meds. (Adopt rules similar to those in Europe, Australia, Japan, Hong Kong, etc.)
  • Transparency of veterinary procedures (similar to the way it's done in Hong Kong.)
  • Regularly scan horses for microfractures. (Full transparency of the results. Make health and safety of the horses themselves an actual priority as opposed to the lip service we give to that now.)
  • Include the actual pre-race weight of each horse as part of the publicly available data (similar to the way it's done in Hong Kong.)
  • Stewards who aren't afraid to suspend riders for failure to give less than a good faith effort to obtain the best possible placing for a mount.
  • Stewards whose first inclination is to let the original order of finish stand. But who aren't afraid to call riders in afterward and deal with them privately. (Similar to to the way it's now done in Hong Kong and other parts of the world.)
  • Penalties with teeth for trainers and owners caught cheating through the use of drugs.
  • Install a modern secure tote system capable of rendering odds and payoffs in something approaching real time (or much closer to secure and real time than what we have now.)

What if, for the sake of argument, adoption of initiatives like the above resulted in a form reversal?

Instead of the sport continuing to shrink at 4% per year --

Imo, a high likelihood exists total customer spend on the product begins growing at 8% to 12% per year.

After a few years of compounding, I think I'd fare just fine. (As would every other entity involved in racing.)


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Last edited by Jeff P; 03-13-2019 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 05:44 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mikesal57 View Post
Thanks Jeff...interesting...

Being a commercial developer yourself....how would you fair if it was free? if you dont mind...
I'd like to answer that, if you don't mind.

The market would simply explode. How many people would download every day even if they only play 1 or 2 days a week?

And how many of those 5-8 day per month players would play 10-12 days per month?

Simply put, if the cost of data went down, a successful developer would probably double or triple his income while the customer would cut his bill by half and still get better software.
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Old 03-13-2019, 05:49 PM   #7
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thank you gentleman....
it sounds to me its a win win

now , to get it to deaf ears...

Last edited by mikesal57; 03-13-2019 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:03 PM   #8
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thank you gentleman....
it sounds to me its a win win

What will likely happen is the price if data will go UP once they see we want it!
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:07 PM   #9
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The availability of free data is such an obvious necessity that it hardly needs any justification...but the horse racing industry cannot be depended upon to act in accordance with what is deemed most logical and reasonable. The link says that this is the FOURTH "white paper" that the TIF has submitted to the horse racing industry...which would lead one to assume that the prior three recommendations were considered of higher importance. And...what were these three prior recommendations again? Penny breakage...communication between stewards and the public...and fixed odds wagering. Given how little attention the industry has paid to these three more important suggestions...what would lead us to expect any attention at all to be paid to this most recent one?
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz View Post
I'd like to answer that, if you don't mind.

The market would simply explode. How many people would download every day even if they only play 1 or 2 days a week?

And how many of those 5-8 day per month players would play 10-12 days per month?

Simply put, if the cost of data went down, a successful developer would probably double or triple his income while the customer would cut his bill by half and still get better software.
I have long wondered why the cost of data for Horse Racing is so consumer unfriendly.
A quick search resulted in this website( https://www.hollywoodraces.com/horse...-performances/) which provides free ( basic) PP's.
And here is a pdf file of one example
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1el6...ABF_glU98/view.
And here is an example of the data for Sha Tin( Hong Kong) free of charge.
Now this is a plethora of info..
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1el6...ABF_glU98/view
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:58 PM   #11
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I have long wondered why the cost of data for Horse Racing is so consumer unfriendly.
Is it? For about $130 a month you can get PPs and results for every race every month. That seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:09 PM   #12
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Jerry Brown is in agreement with Dave, per ATR show today.
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Is it? For about $130 a month you can get PPs and results for every race every month. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

Sure....with most people being losers already...just tack on another $1500+

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Old 03-14-2019, 06:39 PM   #14
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Sure....with most people being losers already...just tack on another $1500+

Losers who can't afford data probably shouldn't be playing in the first place. It's a nice reality check.
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:07 PM   #15
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Is it? For about $130 a month you can get PPs and results for every race every month. That seems pretty reasonable to me.
My angle is for the casual player. Or say, the person that bets a few times a month.
Those quantity discounts are geared toward the every day player. Those who churn thousands every day.
I bet the races on some days.
Usually when I am home from work.
Mostly on weekends.
Now, not to say a few dollars is not unreasonable. However, when a copy of the DRF costs $8 or $9 ...Or the days's program at Saratoga costs $5. I wonder why it is other racing jurisdictions can give the same or even more information to the bettor free of charge.
What's the difference?
Is the information more costly in the US?
Look, on another front, which may help to bring this into some sort of perspective.
Compared to Europe and the Pacific Rim, our internet and cell technology is primitive. And it costs the consumer far more.
In other threads the lag in tote systems has been a large bone of contention.
I suspect, no such issues exist in the aforementioned locations.
The issue is, in Europe and Asia things are done differently.
I would submit that is a good thing. It makes us unique.
However when uniqueness is preserved even over the glaringly logical, that's not rational.
My point is, if non-North American racing jurisdictions are more successful, I think it is time to drop the pride and take a page out of the book of those who are doing it better.
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