Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I give up. Why is there pain? So, humans must undergo uintense pain and suffering in order to prevent god from wiping us out?

Is your god a sadist?

Got news for you. God has no involvement in your pimples bad breath or hemorrhoids.

Things evolve, things fall apart. Accident, randomness are Murphy's law on a cosmic scale. And your god's name is Murphy as well as Yahweh.

If you are unaware and not looking around, god has nothing to do with you walking of a cliff. You do.

Hope during your exile, you can sort these things out.

Because DEATH (all that normally attends to it) must reign until all the elect are brought into the Kingdom of God and the Messiah returns to judge the righteous and unrighteous.. Here are two passages that speak succinctly to this issue. Connect the dots.

Rom 5:17-19
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
NASB

And,

1 Cor 15:20-26
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
NIV

Did you catch that: There is one last enemy that hasn't been destroyed yet from the face of this earth: DEATH -- and all the misery that naturally accompanies it. Yes, Christ conquered death, and so will all his chosen people when the Messiah returns. This is what Paul meant when he said that Christ is the FIRSTFRUITS of resurrection life. And as verse 23 says, "each in his own turn" -- Christ first since he rose from the dead 2,000 years ago, THEN those who belong to him after he returns.

When Christ returns and raises the righteous dead, there will be no more death for those saints. And since no more death, then no more misery, suffering or sorrow ever. This is what eternal life means! This is why Paul could also exclaim:

1 Cor 15:50-57
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting ?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
NASB

There will be no death in the eternal, visible Kingdom of God. Never. All the saints will live forever!

Rev 21:1-4
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
NIV

You want the impossible: Utopia in this dark, fallen world, but you don't want to do what is required of you to obtain spiritual life in this age and immortality it in the next! You want your cake while eating it, too. Doesn't work in the real world. That only works in fantasies.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Because DEATH (all that normally attends to it) must reign until all the elect are brought into the Kingdom of God and the Messiah returns to judge the righteous and unrighteous.. Here are two passages that speak succinctly to this issue. Connect the dots.

You are certifiable.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You are certifiable.

I'm certifiable? You whine and complain about all the misery, sorrow, suffering in this world, which ultimately is tantamount to whining about why do we die so much. If no one ever died in this world, we wouldn't have misery, sorrow and suffering, would we?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

That coming from someone who doesn't believe in good or evil is sweet.

Good or evil has nothing to do with it.

Good and evil are human constructs.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Good or evil has nothing to do with it.

Good and evil are human constructs.

Then there can be no such thing as innocence, can there?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Then there can be no such thing as innocence, can there?

If you want to go down that road then neither can there be such a thing as guilt.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by hcap

Why is there pain?

Because an organism that can sense pain has a survival advantage.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Because an organism that can sense pain has a survival advantage.

But when an organism isn't dying, there is no reason to sense pain.

The process of dying starts the day we're born.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But when an organism isn't dying, there is no reason to sense pain.

Oh, really?

I suggest you perform a little experiment. Put a pan of water on the stove, bring it to boiling, then stick your hand in it for ten minutes.

I predict you won't be able to do it. Within seconds you will have learned not to do that. Not sticking your hand into boiling water is a survival advantage and you have the pain response to thank for it.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by hcap

Why is there pain?

Originally Posted by boxcar

But when an organism isn't dying, there is no reason to sense pain.

The process of dying starts the day we're born.

So then there is no crime of murder? Hitler just did what comes naturally?
Those 6 million concentration camp fatalities were going to kick the bucket anyway? And any infant or child experiencing horrendous intense pain at Auschwitz while dying was no big deal? God wrote the script for Hitler and his Holocaust

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

So then there is no crime of murder?

Why would you infer that?

Hitler just did what comes naturally?

Now you're catching on! Finally! Took you long enough. We're all natural-born sinners. "Can mankind be just before God? Can a man be pure before his Maker?" (Job 4:17).

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Why would you infer that?

You are by telling us Hitler, Stalin and Mao were only the actors, merely following the "script" written by your god in order to carry out some plan you claim you know. And if your god created man in it's image, we would expect your god also feels pain as we do. And since according to you, knows everything, he must be aware.....

1)-of what pain feels like

2)-his so-called "plan" is one giant horrendous pain for man.

3)-Exaggerated , intensified , and consciously designed for his so-called children

4)-Is an accessory to those millions of painful deaths performed by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

5)-So instead of "Do not commit murder", telling us what not to do, the basis of the abrahamic religions,....your god really is commanding us to... do as I do and murder as many as you can and sadistically enjoy their pain.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You are by telling us Hitler, Stalin and Mao were only the actors, merely following the "script" written by your god in order to carry out some plan you claim you know. And if your god created man in it's image, we would expect your god also feels pain as we do. And since according to you, knows everything, he must be aware.....

1)-of what pain feels like

2)-his so-called "plan" is one giant horrendous pain for man.

3)-Exaggerated , intensified , and consciously designed for his so-called children

4)-Is an accessory to those millions of painful deaths performed by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

5)-So instead of "Do not commit murder", telling us what not to do, the basis of the abrahamic religions,....your god really is commanding us to... do as I do and murder as many as you can and sadistically enjoy their pain.

Men act willingly. God twists no arms to get man to act wickedly. Doesn't have to. It is in man's nature. All God does is remove his restraining grace, so that man will be given over more fully to his depraved nature. Since no man deserves God's grace, God is under no moral obligation to bestow any to anyone at any time.

Secondly, God is spirit and does not and cannot "feel pain" as we humans do. However, Jesus can certainly emphasize with man's pain, since he is fully divine and fully human.

To be made in God's image (just to keep it simple) is to bear the immaterial parts of God: Rationality, Morality and Personality.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Men act willingly. God twists no arms to get man to act wickedly. Doesn't have to. It is in man's nature. All God does is remove his restraining grace, so that man will be given over more fully to his depraved nature. Since no man deserves God's grace, God is under no moral obligation to bestow any to anyone at any time.

Secondly, God is spirit and does not and cannot "feel pain" as we humans do. However, Jesus can certainly emphasize with man's pain, since he is fully divine and fully human.

To be made in God's image (just to keep it simple) is to bear the immaterial parts of God: Rationality, Morality and Personality.

Wait one second. you told us your god intervenes in men's affairs all the freaking time. That mass murderers like Hitler and his Nazis were following your god's well thought out "redemptive "script.

So, does that mean if Trump is un-elected, he has only himself to blame?
God will not "install" him a second time?

Pray tell? Why did your god install him the first time?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Wait one second. you told us your god intervenes in men's affairs all the freaking time. That mass murderers like Hitler and his Nazis were following your god's well thought out "redemptive "script.

So, does that mean if Trump is un-elected, he has only himself to blame?
God will not "install" him a second time?

Pray tell? Why did your god install him the first time?

Yes, God does intervene via his grace. God himself is the biggest restrainer of evil in this world!

Now...pay attention because I'm going to give these two biblical examples once. And I know both of them will go over your head, but so be it. I can explain it to you, but it's way above my pay grade to get you to understand it.

NT Example:

2 Thess 2:1-12
2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
NASB

This passage is dealing with the return of Christ, and Paul is dealing with misinformation that false believers have propagated upon the Thessalonians. Paul is setting the record straight. He's saying that Christ will not return until the advent of the antichrist occurs! Paul goes on to explain that at his writing that advent is on hold. It's on hold because Satan is being restrained. And Satan is key to the advent of the antichrist because as v. 9 says that the antichrist's coming is in accord with the activity of Satan. So, it's not the antichrist in Paul's day that was being restrained but rather Satan and his activity! And I believe that Paul understood that Jesus had already bound the strong man during this Church Age (Mk 3:27).

The apostle John also understood this, apparently, when he penned:

Rev 20:1-3
20:1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
NASB

It's no accident that the term "bound" in the above passage and in Mk 3:17 is derived from the same Greek term! So, here in Revelation, in highly symbolical language, we find that God has employed a strong angel to bind or restrain the activity of Satan. And it is this "binding" that is is delaying the advent of the antichirst, which in turn is delaying the return of Christ. This binding is an act of grace on God's part, as it is restraining Satan's evil activity, therefore, both the Church, specifically, and the world, generally, benefit from God's gracious act, since the gospel is free to go forth throughout the world by the Church and save many who believe it.

OT Example:

Gen 20:1-7
20:1 [i]Now Abraham journeyed from there toward the land of the Negev, and settled between Kadesh and Shur; then he sojourned in Gerar. 2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." 4 Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, "Lord, wilt Thou slay a nation, even though blameless? 5 "Did he not himself say to me, 'She is my sister'? And she herself said, 'He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this." 6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you, and you will live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours."
NASB

Pretty self-explanatory passage. But don't miss a central point in this passage: Abimelech had no idea that it was God's hand that was restraining the natural evil in this king's heart. God corrected the king and would not allow him to take credit for his virtuous behavior toward Sarah.

One more thing: God, as stated earlier, often removes his restraining grace in order to allow men to more fully revert back to their natural depravity. Verses 11 and 12 in the 2 Thessalonians passages speaks to this truth. God sends those who had no pleasure in the truth, a deluding influence so that they would never repent! In other words, God will give these people over to their own depraved mind, so that it's no longer possible for them to repent and believe the gospel!