Racing has a serious problem here

[cj]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

Every few minutes, yes, but the point is still made that the slot machine is working at a rate of takeout per minute equal to or higher than takeout at almost every track. 5 minutes of play at the rate above is an expected takeout of between 60 and 78%. How does that equate to playing one race every five minutes, which is doable if you really want to. It sure doesn't look so much better to me.

I just don't think racing should get a pass because it takes longer to run races. Just as nobody forces you play every race, nobody forces you to pull the handle or push the button every 15 seconds. Slots aren't the best comparison for horse racing. Poker is much better. What is the takeout on poker?

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by cj

I just don't think racing should get a pass because it takes longer to run races. Just as nobody forces you play every race, nobody forces you to pull the handle or push the button every 15 seconds. Slots aren't the best comparison for horse racing. Poker is much better. What is the takeout on poker?

No passes being given, just stating the point that the comparison with slots is a terrible one. I agree that poker has many more similarities, though speed of play is likely still faster than most would bet races.

[cj]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

No passes being given, just stating the point that the comparison with slots is a terrible one. I agree that poker has many more similarities, though speed of play is likely still faster than most would bet races.

Not really on the speed, especially true for someone playing from home.

[burnsy]

its not that the form is 8 bucks...its exactly like castaway stated. people love the slots and numbers because it requires no thinking. the take out could be equal...it won't bring new people. the horseplayers might increase handle because we might bet more but women ,old people and many young people are hooked on the "video crack". put the money in....push a button and take a shot. many of them count on losing before they start. they can drink, talk and even smoke at some places without a thought and the machine determines if they win or lose. these are people that suck at math and don't even want to do it, let alone handicap a race. i tried the "slot racing" and hated it. picking an exacta is like pulling the damn handle on a slot machine. horse racing costs way more to maintain than a stupid machine. horse racing will struggle until people have inquiring and analytic minds. if you are not a critical thinker...you'll never get this game or be any good at it. people know this and it intimidates them from the start. how many times have you heard people say they don't understand the form or program...its because they don't want to take the time to figure it out or just plain can't...its not rocket science but to many it is because they have no desire to learn. the tracks should offer free classes for beginnners during peak days and seasons....saratoga and del mar should have one every morning. we live in a lazy, get it immediatly society....call it what it is. we might win some over by taking them by the hand and babying them....but there is a large portion of this population that will be a lost cause. even if the takeout were zero...we're the only ones that even think about it because we analyze and bet frequently. you gotta get people playing....at the track. its a tall order in this day and age.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

No passes being given, just stating the point that the comparison with slots is a terrible one. I agree that poker has many more similarities, though speed of play is likely still faster than most would bet races.

How about a comparison to sports betting then? They only take 2 and a half hours to 3 hours to play. How come the takeout isn't higher than horse racing?

[jelly]

Anyone who walks through the tracks door should be giving PPs for that track.
When these tracks promote a big events like opening day,concerts,cooking trucks(?)etc. you get a lot of Newcomers,Why wouldn't you give them something to bet with?

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by castaway01

Still, there is something to be said for the idea that while takeout is a huge factor for us because we know about it, the vast majority of slots players don't avoid horse racing because of the takeout. The vast majority of those slot players also lose money at a similar rate to horse racing gamblers (for reasons Al said), but slots are easy, quick, exciting and "fun," a simple diversion, while trying to understand racing is difficult, time-consuming, and while "fun" for us requires you to use your brain, which most don't want to do.


While I would love for takeout to be cut in half, you'd still largely be preaching to the converted at the track. Sure, please, cut it tomorrow, but casinos and slot machines would still be taking people's money in buckets, as they are now throughout the nation.

It's all about trying something new as a gambler, and learning if we have a "shot" to win, even if we have no shot. Slots players think they can win.

A mom in her basement would never play a stock at $300 per trade, but at $9 a trade she can try it and make some money. It's pretty complex to play the markets but that area has exploded with at home play. Word of mouth about Etrade spread to the mainstream, and you now people playing a trade every minute.

Online poker is very similar. When people started playing, they learned they could break even, or at the very least have a shot. If you raked 30% out of a poker pot, word of mouth would spread the game sucks, and we'd likely not be watching the WSOP every year.

Right now, racing has a terrible reputation as a gambling game. Listen to any Vegas talk show on gambling, or read any blog. That is a huge issue and a huge barrier of entry.

If you notice, it is not that way with Betfair. There you can play a dozen or so tracks and have a shot to win. If you use CJ's figs, with a track bias, you could probably break even at Betfair betting to win, and do what poker players are doing. You cant do that at 16% rakes, unless you are extremely skilled.

This is what Peter Webb has done, and he is a newbie. If the rake was 15% and parimutuel only, Peter Webb would be playing the stock market, or poker.

http://www.sportspromedia.com/guest_...ting_exchange/

The gambling market is over $500B a year and that's the legal one. It's probably more like $1 trillion. When 98% of that money is going to low rake games, where people have a shot to win - or think they have a shot to win - your game has a serious pricing problem. Racing has a serious pricing problem.

[Producer]

Originally Posted by burnsy

its not that the form is 8 bucks...its exactly like castaway stated. people love the slots and numbers because it requires no thinking. the take out could be equal...it won't bring new people. the horseplayers might increase handle because we might bet more but women ,old people and many young people are hooked on the "video crack". put the money in....push a button and take a shot. many of them count on losing before they start. they can drink, talk and even smoke at some places without a thought and the machine determines if they win or lose. these are people that suck at math and don't even want to do it, let alone handicap a race. i tried the "slot racing" and hated it. picking an exacta is like pulling the damn handle on a slot machine. horse racing costs way more to maintain than a stupid machine. horse racing will struggle until people have inquiring and analytic minds. if you are not a critical thinker...you'll never get this game or be any good at it. people know this and it intimidates them from the start. how many times have you heard people say they don't understand the form or program...its because they don't want to take the time to figure it out or just plain can't...its not rocket science but to many it is because they have no desire to learn. the tracks should offer free classes for beginnners during peak days and seasons....saratoga and del mar should have one every morning. we live in a lazy, get it immediatly society....call it what it is. we might win some over by taking them by the hand and babying them....but there is a large portion of this population that will be a lost cause. even if the takeout were zero...we're the only ones that even think about it because we analyze and bet frequently. you gotta get people playing....at the track. its a tall order in this day and age.

IMO, most of this is spot on. I truly believe regardless of what tracks, racing organizations, or anybody else does to promote horse racing to new fans, most will not care for it, except on big "event" days when it's more of a social event. If spending $8 on a form, or $3.50 on a hot dog is such a big deal, you shouldn't be gambling anyway. So you spend $10 before you even start betting. Big Deal, everything costs money. No way somebody can tell me that this is a major deterrent to gaining new fans. Americans want instant gratification and instant success and that's simply not possible in horse racing. It's an intellectual game and most people are not drawn to that aspect of it.

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by Horseplayersbet.com

How about a comparison to sports betting then? They only take 2 and a half hours to 3 hours to play. How come the takeout isn't higher than horse racing?

It's the slowest betting game around, but bookies in 1890 charge dime lines. Vegas charges dime lines today. They don't do it because it's a charity, they have tried to charge more at times - but people lost too much money and stopped betting. Back to dime lines.

If sports betting charged 25%, sports betting would not be popular either.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by DeanT

It's all about trying something new as a gambler, and learning if we have a "shot" to win, even if we have no shot. Slots players think they can win.

A mom in her basement would never play a stock at $300 per trade, but at $9 a trade she can try it and make some money. It's pretty complex to play the markets but that area has exploded with at home play. Word of mouth about Etrade spread to the mainstream, and you now people playing a trade every minute.

Online poker is very similar. When people started playing, they learned they could break even, or at the very least have a shot. If you raked 30% out of a poker pot, word of mouth would spread the game sucks, and we'd likely not be watching the WSOP every year.

Right now, racing has a terrible reputation as a gambling game. Listen to any Vegas talk show on gambling, or read any blog. That is a huge issue and a huge barrier of entry.

If you notice, it is not that way with Betfair. There you can play a dozen or so tracks and have a shot to win. If you use CJ's figs, with a track bias, you could probably break even at Betfair betting to win, and do what poker players are doing. You cant do that at 16% rakes, unless you are extremely skilled.

This is what Peter Webb has done, and he is a newbie. If the rake was 15% and parimutuel only, Peter Webb would be playing the stock market, or poker.

http://www.sportspromedia.com/guest_...ting_exchange/

The gambling market is over $500B a year and that's the legal one. It's probably more like $1 trillion. When 98% of that money is going to low rake games, where people have a shot to win - or think they have a shot to win - your game has a serious pricing problem. Racing has a serious pricing problem.

Well, if you're just about fooling soccer moms into thinking they can win at the track, then go for it, but if you're saying they actually have a better chance to win at slots than racing, I don't agree. I guess it's marketing vs. reality and slots do have better marketing. If you've ever actually spoken to anyone who hits the casino regularly---as my father and a lot of his senior friends do---they don't do it because they think they can "win" but because it's a fun break from life for a couple hours and hey, they just might hit that penny machine. If you think people there have any idea what "rake" is though, you can write all you want, but you're wrong. Again, not saying I don't want a lower takeout, but the slot players don't have any idea what "rake" even is. It's just easy.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by DeanT

It's all about trying something new as a gambler, and learning if we have a "shot" to win, even if we have no shot. Slots players think they can win.

A mom in her basement would never play a stock at $300 per trade, but at $9 a trade she can try it and make some money. It's pretty complex to play the markets but that area has exploded with at home play. Word of mouth about Etrade spread to the mainstream, and you now people playing a trade every minute.

Online poker is very similar. When people started playing, they learned they could break even, or at the very least have a shot. If you raked 30% out of a poker pot, word of mouth would spread the game sucks, and we'd likely not be watching the WSOP every year.

Right now, racing has a terrible reputation as a gambling game. Listen to any Vegas talk show on gambling, or read any blog. That is a huge issue and a huge barrier of entry.

If you notice, it is not that way with Betfair. There you can play a dozen or so tracks and have a shot to win. If you use CJ's figs, with a track bias, you could probably break even at Betfair betting to win, and do what poker players are doing. You cant do that at 16% rakes, unless you are extremely skilled.

This is what Peter Webb has done, and he is a newbie. If the rake was 15% and parimutuel only, Peter Webb would be playing the stock market, or poker.

http://www.sportspromedia.com/guest_...ting_exchange/

The gambling market is over $500B a year and that's the legal one. It's probably more like $1 trillion. When 98% of that money is going to low rake games, where people have a shot to win - or think they have a shot to win - your game has a serious pricing problem. Racing has a serious pricing problem.

Also, if you have any facts behind what you write, please feel free to post sources. Sounds good but no meat on the bone. Poker players? Where are they legally playing online these days? Tell us the website names. CJ's figs with track bias at Betfair? Where do I legally play Betfair in the United States.

No meat on the bone.

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by castaway01

Well, if you're just about fooling soccer moms into thinking they can win at the track, then go for it, but if you're saying they actually have a better chance to win at slots than racing, I don't agree. I guess it's marketing vs. reality and slots do have better marketing. If you've ever actually spoken to anyone who hits the casino regularly---as my father and a lot of his senior friends do---they don't do it because they think they can "win" but because it's a fun break from life for a couple hours and hey, they just might hit that penny machine. If you think people there have any idea what "rake" is though, you can write all you want, but you're wrong. Again, not saying I don't want a lower takeout, but the slot players don't have any idea what "rake" even is. It's just easy.

I wasn't disagreeing with you; I rarely do on this board, actually. I know the market you are talking about (the same people who'll play the lotto, or get a parlay card at a bad rake). We'll never get that market, so it is not even worth trying. But there is a common thread. In lotto games (scratch games) rakes can be lower than a superfecta at Philly Park. Slot games would still have some business, but remember when they charged 15% in 1970? Crickets in the parlor.

For people we're after in racing, sophistication is key, and poker/sports bettors and stock traders are the market. Those games kill us on price, and that's a huge issue.

Remember this blog piece? That's a whole lot of money that is not even looking at you - not because your game is slow, or there are juicers, or they don't like TVG, or HRTV, or Ramon Dominguez - but because you've priced yourself off their radar.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation....r-players.html

Betting market has a lot of white papers and poker news with statistics if you'd like to give it a look,

http://www.bettingmarket.com/industrynews.htm

[BombsAway Bob]

Originally Posted by jelly

And expensive.$8 for a DRF form.A major problem is how to use the information to attract new players.

At Saratoga, DelMar, Monmouth, Gulfstream, & other meets where there
are a "large" (by comparison) number of new bettors & casual fans,
DRF Should push their "DRF Quicksheet";
sold $1.50/ea. ($4.99/unlim/day) online,
They could sell them for $2 ontrack.
even sell them where track programs are sold as a supplement,
& expose DRF product.
here's a sample how they look... ((& check those 2005 Beyers vs.today!))

http://www1.drf.com/misc/quicksample2.pdf

To Purchase Quicksheets:

http://store.drf.com/acb/stores/1/DR...A2E6C4455DE3C6

-----

[jelly]

The DRF shouldn't even be involved,they don't make any money when the people bet at the track.The tracks do,the tracks should supply the PPS.



This is something that Churchill Downs could easily do (Owner of Twinspires, Brisnet,Fairgrounds,Calder and Arlington..)



Everyone that shows up to Churchill's tracks during the live meet gets free PPS to that track.



How do you lose money doing this?You don't!You profit,(cost is little)your handle goes up and you get good PR.



If you're in charge of Churchill do you give it a or a

[Robert Goren]

There is no doubt that takeouts are way too high, but the horsemen have to be paid somehow. What is disappointing is that racinos have not lowered their takeout.

The cost of information on horse racing is outrageous. The cost at the track is prohibative. The cost at home isn't much better. How many threads have we had about the costs of data plans for the multiple track bettors? Even for very small bettor like me are faced with the choice of giving up rebates in order to get free PPs at Twinspires or buying PPs at pretty good cost considering the amount I bet in order to get a rebate.
As for track/simulcast center food. None of the regulars around here buy it very often. They might buy a 20 0z cup of Coke at $ 2.00 now and then, but that is about it. They have priced themselves out of the market.